Phoenix, Consent Decrees, & The DOJ with PLEA President Darrell Kriplean

Transcript

WEBVTT

00:00:02.044 --> 00:00:10.446
Welcome to courageous leadership with Travis Yates, where leaders find the insights, advice and encouragement they need to lead courageously.

00:00:12.861 --> 00:00:13.965
Welcome back to the show.

00:00:13.965 --> 00:00:18.428
I'm so honored you're here and this is a special episode.

00:00:18.428 --> 00:00:21.274
We're going to plug in between a couple of interviews.

00:00:21.274 --> 00:00:25.649
I hope you listen to our last episode with Dr Shay.

00:00:25.649 --> 00:00:27.332
It's incredible.

00:00:27.332 --> 00:00:42.479
In fact, he's given several interviews about his work on the documentary to fall Minneapolis, but when you listen to this interview and he even relayed this back to me after he listened to it he gave information in that interview that he didn't give to anybody else and it's really important you listen to it.

00:00:42.479 --> 00:00:46.527
So be sure to check that out Like the podcast, share it, review it.

00:00:46.659 --> 00:01:04.329
It all helps to traction we're trying to get to get important messages out, like today, and, as you know, I have spoken and written quite a bit about federal consent decrees over law enforcement, and it seems like I'm one of the few talking about it and that's why I keep talking about it.

00:01:04.329 --> 00:01:07.679
So I know maybe you're tired of it, but we have to understand this.

00:01:07.679 --> 00:01:15.810
We have to understand how to deal with this and where it takes us, or our profession is going to continue to struggle, as well as the communities that we serve.

00:01:15.810 --> 00:01:20.352
And I'm really honored today to have Darrell Kriplean on the show.

00:01:20.352 --> 00:01:24.209
Darrell is the president of the Phoenix Law Enforcement Association.

00:01:24.209 --> 00:01:34.210
He's got 29 years of service in law enforcement and he's been the president just shy of two years for the association that speaks for Phoenix police officers.

00:01:34.210 --> 00:01:39.171
And, Darrell, right before you took this job, first off, thanks for being here.

00:01:39.921 --> 00:01:41.406
Well, thanks for having me, sir, I appreciate it.

00:01:42.579 --> 00:01:48.066
Right before you took this job, the Department of Justice came to the city of Phoenix and launched an investigation.

00:01:48.066 --> 00:01:55.805
How did you know about this before you took the job, Because I know you know a lot about it now, but before you took the job, what was the impressions going on there in Phoenix?

00:01:57.001 --> 00:02:01.132
You know, I really didn't have a good working knowledge of it and in fact I really had.

00:02:01.132 --> 00:02:08.389
I mean, other than talking to our friends around the country that are dealing with it, I didn't have a good idea of what it would actually entail.

00:02:08.389 --> 00:02:16.908
But you're right, since last couple of years it's been trial by fire and thinking from a fire hose, if you will.

00:02:17.235 --> 00:02:19.978
Well, for those listening, that's been keeping up these podcasts.

00:02:19.978 --> 00:02:35.887
You know, a few weeks ago I filmed an episode a short episode talking about the historic day that January 11th 2024 was because, for the first time, a major city told the DOJ we aren't interested in playing your games.

00:02:35.887 --> 00:02:46.770
And and, darryl, you've been integrally involved in this entire process from beginning to that day in January when you were probably surprised that your city had sent that letter.

00:02:46.770 --> 00:02:56.721
I just kind of wanted to walk our audience through your experiences dealing with with the consent decree and the DOJ and all the things going on there, because, like you said, it's very difficult to understand.

00:02:56.721 --> 00:03:02.127
Most people think it's never going to apply to them till it does, and then you're always back on your heels trying to defend yourself.

00:03:02.127 --> 00:03:09.275
Let's first take people through sort of what you quickly found out about consent decrees as you've gotten your position and started investigating this.

00:03:09.275 --> 00:03:12.284
This is going to be a very pressing issue for your tenure.

00:03:12.284 --> 00:03:16.747
What, when you called around, you started asking about these consent decrees, what did you find out?

00:03:18.096 --> 00:03:25.675
Well, I really learned quickly how destructive these consent decrees are, not only to the department but to the community that the department serves.

00:03:25.675 --> 00:03:37.634
I found that they are wildly expensive and a lot of times, while they're doing this investigation, the DOJ loves to operate under this cloak of secrecy.

00:03:37.634 --> 00:03:38.667
They don't, they don't collaborate.

00:03:38.667 --> 00:03:42.973
They said they collaborate but to me collaboration is a two-way street.

00:03:42.973 --> 00:03:56.582
If the department I know the department had provided tens of thousands of documents, tens of thousands of body worn camera video, all kinds of stuff, every time they asked for something, the department gave it to them.

00:03:56.582 --> 00:03:59.789
But there never was anything coming back to the department.

00:03:59.789 --> 00:04:07.093
So it was hard for the department to gauge where it was.

00:04:07.093 --> 00:04:11.275
It was hard for the electives to understand what was going on.

00:04:11.275 --> 00:04:20.254
So I think to a certain degree a lot of those folks just kind of tried to ignore it while it was going on, until they started coming out and making you know having visits with us.

00:04:21.060 --> 00:04:22.750
Well, that's kind of how the DOJ operates.

00:04:22.750 --> 00:04:23.274
In this fashion.

00:04:23.274 --> 00:04:26.274
You talk about the destruction of the cities and obviously you're like me.

00:04:26.274 --> 00:04:29.254
You've probably looked at these other cities that have engaged in these consent decrees.

00:04:29.254 --> 00:04:39.274
When you, when you look at the potential success of something and think if somebody wants to come into your agency and help your agency improve, so to speak, you know okay is, do they have a successful track record?

00:04:39.274 --> 00:04:46.274
And when you look back over the last 30 years when they've gone into police departments I don't know about you, but I couldn't find one story of success.

00:04:46.274 --> 00:04:55.235
It was always higher crimes, lower morale, officers leaving the department and it just the budget just exploded.

00:04:55.235 --> 00:04:57.562
It's the average of $10 million a year.

00:04:57.562 --> 00:05:01.274
Once you once you have to put in $30 to $50 million into that process.

00:05:01.475 --> 00:05:05.235
So you're actually in a county Maricopa County that's been under one of these decrees.

00:05:05.235 --> 00:05:07.274
They've spent over $250 million on it.

00:05:07.274 --> 00:05:13.603
So your residents kind of had a sort of lesson already in what this does.

00:05:13.603 --> 00:05:15.485
Is you think that probably helped you?

00:05:15.485 --> 00:05:19.812
Helped you sort of communicate to the residents and explain to them what this is?

00:05:19.812 --> 00:05:22.254
Because that was a big part of what you've been doing is just communicating.

00:05:22.254 --> 00:05:24.288
Here's what's happened in the past.

00:05:24.288 --> 00:05:25.274
Do you want this here?

00:05:25.274 --> 00:05:28.064
That's kind of been the central focus message, has it not?

00:05:29.016 --> 00:05:29.598
It has been.

00:05:29.598 --> 00:05:36.384
So I took it upon myself to educate myself about these, talk to the people that understand them better than I do.

00:05:36.384 --> 00:05:46.579
And then we have some some pretty ingenious folks that work for this department that were able to kind of school me up, and education has been forefront.

00:05:46.579 --> 00:05:52.829
I mean, the DOJ is not going to talk about their processes and what they do to communities and departments that I'm going to.

00:05:52.829 --> 00:05:57.002
I couldn't understand why our department wasn't out talking to the communities.

00:05:57.081 --> 00:06:20.526
Once I learned all this about the DOJ, you know, I continued to ask the chief why he wasn't out explaining this to the community, and I really think that to some degree that our chief was probably brought in to help us get the least intrusive consent decree possible, because it was a foregone conclusion that Phoenix was going to end up with one.

00:06:20.526 --> 00:06:29.718
Well, as an officer who has a ton of pride in this department is proud to be a police officer for almost the past three decades I couldn't.

00:06:29.718 --> 00:06:31.339
I couldn't sit well with me.

00:06:31.339 --> 00:06:34.843
I couldn't let that happen without putting up some sort of fight.

00:06:34.843 --> 00:06:47.336
So I take it upon myself to start trying to talk to anybody and everybody who would listen about these consent decrees and what they have done around the country and how they've been instructed They've been.

00:06:47.357 --> 00:07:15.009
I mean, it's a, it's a path of of death and destruction, because it is certainly strange that the DOJ would come to a police department and say we're going to investigate you for these civil rights violations, which is the first thing you could accuse any person or organization of right and then the department would then say okay, here's 10 years of documents, 10 years of videos, 10 terabytes of data, and we'll pay for all of it.

00:07:15.009 --> 00:07:15.810
We'll do anything.

00:07:15.810 --> 00:07:21.600
You say we don't, you're not going to give us any answers back, you're not going to be transparent with what you're doing with the information.

00:07:21.600 --> 00:07:31.690
We'll give you access to our record systems, we'll give you access to the deepest bowels of our police department in in cooperation, and we'll pay for all of it.

00:07:31.690 --> 00:07:39.901
So Phoenix PD has spent $6 million to date just complying with the request from the DOJ.

00:07:39.942 --> 00:07:41.744
Now that is insanity.

00:07:41.744 --> 00:07:42.704
Like, like.

00:07:42.704 --> 00:07:44.365
It just doesn't boggles my mind.

00:07:44.365 --> 00:07:55.940
Like you would never go and investigate anything from police department and say, hey, we're investigating you bank for fraud, or we're investigating you for a burglary and you're going to pay my salary while I'm investigating you.

00:07:55.940 --> 00:07:56.721
How does that sound?

00:07:56.721 --> 00:07:58.624
Everybody would think you weren't completely nuts.

00:07:58.624 --> 00:08:04.951
If the burden of proof is on the DOJ, why is the police departments across this nation paying for that?

00:08:05.735 --> 00:08:06.415
Well, why are they?

00:08:06.415 --> 00:08:09.699
Why are they giving it so willingly, the information so willingly?

00:08:09.699 --> 00:08:27.483
Because you know, I think they truly believe that if they cooperate, that the DOJ is not going to, you know, hit him with this, this pattern and practice that's going to, you know, sound horrible and they're going to paint their department, as you know, a racist department that unconstitutionally polices their community on a regular basis.

00:08:27.483 --> 00:08:30.245
I think they truly think that that's not going to happen if they cooperate.

00:08:30.245 --> 00:08:41.078
But every time, I mean, all you have to do is look at history and it's absurd to think that they're helping the DOJ against them.

00:08:41.078 --> 00:08:43.302
It's, it's the most absurd thing I've ever done.

00:08:43.342 --> 00:08:45.486
Yeah, I mean, I think it's probably.

00:08:45.486 --> 00:08:50.645
I think from our Law enforcement in general, knows we're not doing anything wrong.

00:08:50.645 --> 00:08:51.610
It's a pattern of practice.

00:08:51.610 --> 00:08:52.754
So, yeah, we'll cooperate.

00:08:52.754 --> 00:08:55.975
But they couldn't really expect the DOJ to get that and walk away.

00:08:55.975 --> 00:08:57.118
They never have.

00:08:57.118 --> 00:09:00.326
And obviously Phoenix is the fifth largest apartment in the country.

00:09:00.326 --> 00:09:02.499
It's a large Urban environment.

00:09:02.499 --> 00:09:07.195
The DOJ wasn't just going to leave and of course they weren't, and so this was tracking and I don't know.

00:09:07.696 --> 00:09:16.519
Three, six months ago, darrell, start seeing all this information about this website pops up save phxcom, which is Nothing shorter brilliant.

00:09:16.519 --> 00:09:20.995
I know you're not involved in that, but it's nothing shorter brilliant for the residents to sort of rise up About this.

00:09:20.995 --> 00:09:24.809
They started doing the deep dive of what consent decrees are doing across the country.

00:09:24.809 --> 00:09:26.054
Put it all on this website.

00:09:26.054 --> 00:09:36.668
I'll repeat that for everybody listening and be in the show notes save phxcom and it isa Masters degree in consent decree, because it is a complicated issue.

00:09:36.668 --> 00:09:39.841
It's not just just easy to say, oh deal J's here to reform.

00:09:39.841 --> 00:09:42.291
No, no, the deal J is here to destroy.

00:09:42.291 --> 00:09:43.174
And here's the evidence.

00:09:43.174 --> 00:09:44.880
And of course they've been doing it for 30 years.

00:09:44.880 --> 00:09:45.744
There's plenty of evidence.

00:09:45.744 --> 00:09:46.206
So there's.

00:09:47.048 --> 00:09:49.337
I don't know how many articles are on this website, but it is crazy.

00:09:49.337 --> 00:10:03.048
There's some geared directly towards Phoenix, but a lot of it were just geared towards what's happening Cleveland and Portland and Seattle and Chicago and a lot of these cities that nobody Would go on vacation on since the deal J's come into town with the crime rates are and everything else in the violence.

00:10:03.048 --> 00:10:08.054
When you look at the top 20 murder cities in America, 12 are ran by the deal J through consent decrees.

00:10:08.054 --> 00:10:20.654
So I think your residents and of course, that messaging was more in the website like like you guys, you guys spend an incredible amount of resources and time Communicating with people, giving them the website tell, doing community meetings.

00:10:21.116 --> 00:10:25.552
I know you brought in Bob scales, additional community means and, of course, everybody listening that wants to know about consent decrees.

00:10:25.552 --> 00:10:29.044
Check out Bob Scales on LinkedIn or the websites got some of those articles on there.

00:10:29.044 --> 00:10:35.309
So it's just really incredible the effort that you were able to put forth and what kind of staff do you have to do this?

00:10:35.309 --> 00:10:39.927
What, what do you credit this from, because this is no doubt why you've gotten to this point.

00:10:39.927 --> 00:10:42.878
This historic day, january 11, was you communicated to the residents?

00:10:42.878 --> 00:10:47.347
They found out about it, the politicians found out about it, and they can't play dumb by signing it.

00:10:48.596 --> 00:10:48.998
That's right.

00:10:48.998 --> 00:10:53.240
So I mean, I I devoted myself to this.

00:10:53.240 --> 00:11:00.484
I pretty much handed off all my responsibilities to the Other members of my team inside this office and have devoted myself to this.

00:11:00.484 --> 00:11:04.123
But I can tell you that Several things happen that were in our favor.

00:11:04.123 --> 00:11:17.875
When the sheriff of Maricopa County came out and said that he was resigning early because he just thought it was not going to work One of those types of conditions anymore when he's not making any headway that resonated with not only the community but the electives in our on our city.

00:11:18.697 --> 00:11:26.283
But that website popping up I know it's safe phx, but there is so many resources on there that apply nationwide.

00:11:26.283 --> 00:11:26.984
I mean these are.

00:11:26.984 --> 00:11:28.145
This is how.

00:11:28.145 --> 00:11:32.081
This is the pattern and practice of the DOJ, all in one location.

00:11:32.081 --> 00:11:40.486
This, this is exposing them for what they have done and it really I tell you that that was a godsend because I can.

00:11:40.486 --> 00:11:55.597
I can send my residents, like community members night, my city council folks, to that and they can read for themselves what the DOJ is all about and what they have done in other communities, without really doing any Searching for themselves.

00:11:55.597 --> 00:11:58.385
They can probably sit there for hours and read, and read, and read.

00:11:58.576 --> 00:12:02.335
Yeah, I mean it's strategic communication, one-on-one, because there was very little information.

00:12:02.335 --> 00:12:05.423
If you try to search it on your own you get all kinds of stuff.

00:12:05.423 --> 00:12:18.783
It's just very, it's very difficult and complicated to explain and I think I want to make sure people understand how what big of a deal is, because if You're able to succeed in Phoenix, it really sends a message to the rest of law enforcement.

00:12:18.783 --> 00:12:20.628
They're all this to me is bigger than Phoenix.

00:12:20.628 --> 00:12:24.075
Like the DOJ is an unstoppable force.

00:12:24.075 --> 00:12:27.005
Oh, I think only one agency's ever got them to go away.

00:12:27.005 --> 00:12:32.071
Like when they come they don't leave for decades and when they leave it's a wave of destruction.

00:12:32.131 --> 00:12:41.845
In fact, I Want to sort of tell our audience the process the deal J uses to do his consent decrees, because it's really unbelievable when you think about it, and I'll kind of lead them up to it and I'll give it to you.

00:12:41.845 --> 00:12:47.698
So what the deal J typically does is they always do it is they do this investigation, they don't say anything back to the department.

00:12:47.698 --> 00:12:49.985
Then they go to the decision makers.

00:12:49.985 --> 00:12:53.581
So Governments are either council led or mayor led.

00:12:53.581 --> 00:12:58.162
So if it's mayor led, they go to the mayor and they tell the mayor hey, we did an investigation.

00:12:58.162 --> 00:12:59.306
It looks really bad.

00:12:59.306 --> 00:13:03.099
Your department is this your department is that we're healed, we're here to reform it.

00:13:03.099 --> 00:13:04.243
Just sign here.

00:13:04.243 --> 00:13:09.110
And they don't show them the investigation, they don't tell them what they found, they just try to get him to sign it.

00:13:09.110 --> 00:13:10.740
Well, they did the same thing in Phoenix, errol.

00:13:10.740 --> 00:13:12.284
But you're not a strong mayor government.

00:13:12.284 --> 00:13:14.109
You are strong council governments.

00:13:14.109 --> 00:13:20.048
You have council members that are tasked with making this decision and kind of explain to our audience what happened when that occurred.

00:13:20.537 --> 00:13:24.154
So I truly the DOJ, didn't do their homework on on the city of Phoenix.

00:13:24.154 --> 00:13:31.914
They felt that they could come in here and and trance over our mayor and bully her into signing this agreement principle.

00:13:31.914 --> 00:13:35.633
So In Phoenix I started.

00:13:35.633 --> 00:13:42.745
I mean, we realized that our charter is set up where it's a strong council manager set up right.

00:13:42.745 --> 00:13:51.644
So for any of them to agree to an agreement principle they need five of those city council people to agree to enter into that agreement.

00:13:51.644 --> 00:13:54.216
And that was, I believe that was a blow to the DOJ.

00:13:54.216 --> 00:13:58.038
I don't think they anticipated that they didn't do their homework.

00:13:58.770 --> 00:14:16.600
And I had an occasion to run into Robert Moosey, who I believe is the number two at the Civil Rights Division underneath Kristen Clark, at an April conference and we had a pretty spirited interaction and I explained to him I go look you guys, this isn't normal.

00:14:16.600 --> 00:14:22.363
You're going to have to convince five of those city council people that this is in their best interest and the city's best interest.

00:14:22.363 --> 00:14:27.735
And I've had a head start on you because I've been talking to him and he was a little bit taken aback by it.

00:14:27.735 --> 00:14:29.971
So I mean it's.

00:14:31.634 --> 00:14:36.763
I think the city of Phoenix is unique because we are the largest city with that set up of government.

00:14:36.763 --> 00:14:43.562
But I truly hope this is a wake up call to all the other cities that the DOJ comes poking around in.

00:14:43.562 --> 00:14:46.769
But you can say no, you don't have to help them, sue you.

00:14:46.769 --> 00:14:48.756
You don't have to help them in their case.

00:14:48.756 --> 00:14:53.470
Just tell them no, it's going to be just as bad if you cooperate.

00:14:53.470 --> 00:14:55.034
So why help them?

00:14:55.034 --> 00:15:10.265
That's my message, and that's what my message has been to our elected officials that you can't just agree to a huge bill that will last decades without knowing what the heck you're getting into.

00:15:10.265 --> 00:15:11.889
Well, yeah, it's irresponsible.

00:15:12.030 --> 00:15:14.804
Yeah, I mean no one would ever sign anything without reading.

00:15:14.804 --> 00:15:19.220
I mean that's just crazy, but in my mind it's obvious why this has happened.

00:15:19.220 --> 00:15:26.490
If the DOJ had the goods on Phoenix, if they had you dead to riot, they had all this evidence of a pattern and practice of violating people's civil rights.

00:15:26.490 --> 00:15:28.798
If they had all this, then why not show it?

00:15:28.798 --> 00:15:29.851
Why not show?

00:15:29.851 --> 00:15:32.701
Because you don't have to give it publicly, but show it to the decision makers.

00:15:32.701 --> 00:15:34.496
Tell them the reason why it has to be done.

00:15:34.909 --> 00:15:44.809
But they have refused to do that, which tells me there's no upside for them to do that, because the because if you read what they have, you would obviously probably not sign it.

00:15:44.809 --> 00:15:47.219
So they try to coerce you to sign it without even seeing it.

00:15:47.219 --> 00:15:48.490
I know Louisville did that.

00:15:48.490 --> 00:15:49.534
It's quick story.

00:15:49.534 --> 00:15:51.289
Louisville signed it, didn't see it.

00:15:51.289 --> 00:16:01.929
Then, once they saw it, they said well, hold on a minute, this example isn't even correct and we fired this officer in this example and we've made this change because of this one the DOJ didn't care at that point.

00:16:01.929 --> 00:16:03.937
They got you to sign it to consent decrees coming.

00:16:03.937 --> 00:16:12.870
You're not getting out of it and I cannot emphasize enough of, first off, how non transparent and weird that is, that they would operate that way.

00:16:12.870 --> 00:16:14.250
But they've always operated that way.

00:16:14.250 --> 00:16:20.889
They've always gotten away with that until they got to Phoenix and Phoenix goes yeah, we're not going to sign it until we read it, because they haven't refused to sign it.

00:16:21.033 --> 00:16:21.990
Darrell, that's important to note.

00:16:21.990 --> 00:16:32.836
They just refuse to sign it because they don't know what they're signing, and to this day, the DOJ has not given that to them, and I'm convinced it's because there's nothing there, because why would you not give it to them If there's something there?

00:16:32.836 --> 00:16:37.279
I mean, the investigation got paid for by Phoenix, so the DOJ has got nothing to lose, monetary wise.

00:16:37.279 --> 00:16:38.620
So just show it to them.

00:16:38.620 --> 00:16:49.840
But they won't, which is really weird, because they're using your own data, your own taxpayers information and data, and the taxpayers paid $6 million to give them this information, but then you won't show the investigation to the taxpayers.

00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:54.149
That's all strange to me, and so the DOJ certainly wasn't used to that pushback.

00:16:54.269 --> 00:16:58.051
They now have it and the question is is now, what will they do Now?

00:16:58.051 --> 00:17:11.203
They did one thing I've already noted previously in an article you check all that stuff out TravisHorg and seeing all that stuff Is, you'll start seeing the positive news stories pop up around the country about why consent decrees are good.

00:17:11.203 --> 00:17:18.759
Now, this is important to note Just because Darrell and I are telling you how horrible consent decrees are doesn't mean we're against reform, but we're against veteran law enforcement.

00:17:18.759 --> 00:17:21.940
That's the very reason we're telling you how horrible consent decrees are.

00:17:21.940 --> 00:17:31.442
What we're saying is that's not the way to make departments better, it's a way to make departments worse, and so Well, consent decrees aren't about reform for sure.

00:17:31.589 --> 00:17:44.476
They're about removing control of the police departments from the community and giving it to a for-profit monitor, a federal judge, who then makes all of these decisions without community input.

00:17:44.476 --> 00:17:46.718
It's not, has nothing to do with reform.

00:17:46.718 --> 00:17:53.369
We're well, we embrace reform when they perform makes sense and we need to do something different to do it better.

00:17:53.369 --> 00:17:55.075
We're all about that Right.

00:17:55.075 --> 00:17:57.113
We've never have been against that Right.

00:17:57.113 --> 00:17:58.811
There's always a better way to do the job.

00:18:00.065 --> 00:18:06.992
Well, if the DOJ was for reform, darrell, we would have evidence that they are able to reform over 30 years.

00:18:06.992 --> 00:18:10.246
We clearly don't have that evidence, if you just don't join us.

00:18:10.246 --> 00:18:18.012
We're talking to Darrell Criple and he's the president of the Phoenix Law Enforcement Officers Association and they are in the middle of a DOJ investigation as I speak.

00:18:18.012 --> 00:18:19.285
It's coming to a conclusion.

00:18:19.285 --> 00:18:24.417
Their city council has told them we are not going to sign something we haven't seen.

00:18:24.417 --> 00:18:28.404
And so the DOJ these, as I mentioned earlier, these positive stories popped up.

00:18:28.404 --> 00:18:32.980
Well, they they pinpointed Albuquerque as a success story.

00:18:32.980 --> 00:18:37.765
In one particular story, I saw the chief was on there talking about how this has helped them and this and that.

00:18:37.765 --> 00:18:41.545
And I saw that and I thought to myself well, I've been to Albuquerque over the last 10 years.

00:18:41.545 --> 00:18:43.392
It hasn't gotten to be a better place.

00:18:43.392 --> 00:18:45.192
I know that because I've been going there.

00:18:45.192 --> 00:18:53.679
So I looked at the data and to tell Albuquerque as a success story tells you all you need to know.

00:18:53.679 --> 00:19:07.328
So, darrell, when the DOJ came to Albuquerque in 2011, the premise for coming was they had fatally killed 20 people in the previous three years, not to let's not talk about the fact that there could be very good reasons why they had to kill 20 people.

00:19:07.328 --> 00:19:08.272
Well, but they didn't mention that.

00:19:08.272 --> 00:19:10.894
It's just that they killed 20 people in the previous three years.

00:19:10.894 --> 00:19:20.371
Well, here we are, 10 plus years into their consent decree that they're bragging about, and in the last three years the defense the Albuquerque police probably has killed 30 people.

00:19:20.371 --> 00:19:26.690
So it's actually increased 33 percent, probably because of the policies and procedures they had to implement, because of the DOJ.

00:19:26.690 --> 00:19:31.011
That makes things unsafe for everybody and we've seen that every time that sent decree happens.

00:19:31.011 --> 00:19:32.856
Use of force goes up, violence goes up.

00:19:32.856 --> 00:19:35.353
Every metric you don't want to go up goes up.

00:19:35.353 --> 00:19:37.285
Every metric you want to go down goes up.

00:19:37.285 --> 00:19:39.333
It's the exact opposite.

00:19:39.946 --> 00:19:45.944
And I actually spoke to the president of Albuquerque's association and that would be coming out just a few days after this one.

00:19:45.944 --> 00:19:49.845
So you've got to check that out and let me tell you he had nothing good to say.

00:19:49.845 --> 00:19:54.605
He's lived it and he is terrified for the future of Albuquerque.

00:19:54.605 --> 00:19:58.469
And you're trying to get in the middle of this, darrell, and say Phoenix, does it need this?

00:19:58.469 --> 00:20:00.275
And you're down here at the end.

00:20:00.275 --> 00:20:01.912
You've now refused to sign it.

00:20:01.912 --> 00:20:04.244
What do you think the next thing the DOJ is going to do?

00:20:04.244 --> 00:20:08.484
Because it appears now that they're not going to get a voluntary consent to destroy our city, right?

00:20:08.484 --> 00:20:10.532
So what do you think the DOJ's next move is?

00:20:11.605 --> 00:20:13.835
You know, I mean, it's hard to say.

00:20:13.835 --> 00:20:20.953
Obviously, they could just, you know, stay silent for a while until this presidential election glosses over.

00:20:20.953 --> 00:20:31.444
If they're smart, what I think they should do is, you know, we released that letter to the DOJ telling them that we wanted a technical assistance letter and that we've always been self-assessing, self-correcting.

00:20:31.444 --> 00:20:42.036
We even gave them a 53-page document that outlined all the stuff that the Phoenix Police Department has a history of fixing and reforming.

00:20:42.036 --> 00:20:47.729
If they're smart, what they do is they put down their concerns on a technical assistance letter.

00:20:47.729 --> 00:20:51.765
They have their press conference and they say you know what?

00:20:51.765 --> 00:20:54.137
We came to Phoenix, we found this stuff.

00:20:54.480 --> 00:21:07.117
But we're confident, in fact, that the Phoenix Police Department is doing the right thing and will continue to reform all on its own because it has a history of it and we are confident we'll check in with them in a couple years or whatever to see how it's coming.

00:21:07.117 --> 00:21:07.723
But walk away.

00:21:07.723 --> 00:21:11.857
I think that's the best that they can hope for, because I think they can tout that as a win.

00:21:11.857 --> 00:21:14.724
The police department can tout that as a win.

00:21:14.724 --> 00:21:28.525
We're not mindlessly spending tens of millions of dollars on oversight and unnecessary programs and things that the federal judge or the monitor might want to implement, and I think that's probably the best route.

00:21:28.525 --> 00:21:31.644
Now, whether they take that or not, it remains to be seen.

00:21:31.644 --> 00:21:33.484
Well, I tend to agree with you, darryl.

00:21:34.355 --> 00:21:35.105
I think that's the best route.

00:21:35.105 --> 00:21:36.444
It's the appropriate route.

00:21:36.444 --> 00:21:43.505
It's the route they would take if they were actually into reform, because I'll link that letter up in these show notes.

00:21:43.505 --> 00:21:46.162
You guys released a 53-page document.

00:21:46.162 --> 00:21:46.605
That was incredible.

00:21:46.605 --> 00:21:49.224
Any department would ask for that would be able to do that.

00:21:49.224 --> 00:21:53.285
So the fact that you guys have done this over the last decade is really impressive.

00:21:53.285 --> 00:21:54.785
It makes your department look really good.

00:21:54.785 --> 00:22:03.051
In fact, in 2016, the Attorney General of the United States said you were one of the finest departments in the country and all of a sudden, a few years later, they're investigating you for this.

00:22:03.492 --> 00:22:04.175
Who knows why?

00:22:04.175 --> 00:22:11.525
They just it's it and so, yeah, I think if they're smart, they would do that, but the DOJ has not released a technical assistance letter in over a decade.

00:22:11.525 --> 00:22:15.603
If you look at their history recently, they don't do that.

00:22:15.603 --> 00:22:16.005
They won't do that.

00:22:16.005 --> 00:22:26.704
They're all about, like you said earlier, getting inside a department and controlling that agency and then impacting that community in a very negative way, and that may not be their intent.

00:22:26.704 --> 00:22:29.560
I believe they're probably true believers in this ideology.

00:22:29.580 --> 00:22:33.904
That head of the Civil Rights Division said that her goal is to reimagine police.

00:22:33.904 --> 00:22:38.804
Well, yeah, they just don't tell you what that means, and I think we see it through 30 years of consent decrees.

00:22:38.804 --> 00:22:41.699
It doesn't mean much good for the community.

00:22:41.699 --> 00:22:42.765
But I don't think they'll do that.

00:22:42.765 --> 00:22:44.054
So there are other.

00:22:44.174 --> 00:22:53.525
Options would be to continue to twist the arms of your politicians to get them to voluntarily sign it, which they clearly have said they would, and I think a official letter, a public letter to the DOJ, has climbed that out.

00:22:53.525 --> 00:23:04.318
So the other option would be to file a federal lawsuit in front of a federal judge and that gets the motion going to where they would have to prove their case in court.

00:23:04.318 --> 00:23:16.365
If that goes that route and I believe that's the route it will go if they make a decision this year, there's a possibility, with an election year in Arizona tends to be kind of important during presidential election years that they may just go silent for a year or so, who knows.

00:23:16.365 --> 00:23:22.005
But if they do move forward and file a federal lawsuit, what do you see happening when they do that?

00:23:22.904 --> 00:23:24.857
Well, I see that they're going to.

00:23:24.857 --> 00:23:27.005
If they do that, then they're going to drop to find these reports.

00:23:27.005 --> 00:23:36.525
They're going to try and, you know, defame the department in any way, shape upon that they can get the media that's not as friendly to the department on board.

00:23:36.525 --> 00:23:46.805
But I think when it comes time to actually presenting the evidence of this pattern and practice that they claim to have, they're going to bring it back.

00:23:46.805 --> 00:23:48.625
They're going to withdraw that lawsuit because they don't have it.

00:23:48.625 --> 00:23:55.150
Because if they did have it and it was such a huge issue why wouldn't they have brought that to the department when they discovered it?

00:23:55.150 --> 00:24:03.239
Why would they allow a pattern and practice of unconstitutional policing to continue while they're here investigating, keeping it secret, right?

00:24:03.239 --> 00:24:15.521
So they're not going to have the evidence to be able to provide to the judge or to the court, and I think what they'll do is they'll just simply try to make it life a little rough on us, but ultimately they're going to withdraw that lawsuit.

00:24:15.990 --> 00:24:20.354
Yeah, just in case you get any of your decision makers to listen to this, darrell, we certainly hope they do.

00:24:20.354 --> 00:24:21.838
The more we can inform them, the better.

00:24:21.838 --> 00:24:25.866
And, by the way, if Darrell and I say something that's not true, let us know.

00:24:25.866 --> 00:24:28.836
I don't think we've done so yet, because it's pretty clear what these things are.

00:24:28.836 --> 00:24:32.554
But here's a message I would give them and this is my prediction.

00:24:32.554 --> 00:24:48.700
If they follow a lawsuit and I have studied this countless hours over the course of the last several years and I'm probably going to have to end up writing something on it to help other people out, because I've seen the success of what just a small bit of effort and things is made, so that's very encouraging.

00:24:48.700 --> 00:25:01.086
But if they follow a lawsuit, here's the prediction and this is my message to the decision makers the DOJ cannot go to discovery in a lawsuit and, of course, discovery could take three, six, nine months.

00:25:01.086 --> 00:25:01.729
It takes a while.

00:25:01.729 --> 00:25:06.988
So the lawsuit being filed is nothing more than a bluff to try to scare the decision makers.

00:25:06.988 --> 00:25:12.586
Because the DOJ can't go to discovery, because in discovery, all of that's out in the open.

00:25:12.586 --> 00:25:14.614
All of a sudden you see the investigation.

00:25:14.614 --> 00:25:29.913
All of a sudden you see the methodology, all of a sudden the city thinks gets to rebut the investigation something no city's ever done, right, they just take it and go on with it and spend millions of dollars and so but that that discovery almost opens the develop of what they've done.

00:25:29.913 --> 00:25:32.239
And, like I said, I agree with you wholeheartedly.

00:25:32.239 --> 00:25:35.054
If they had something, they would just show it.

00:25:35.054 --> 00:25:38.044
Evidence is evidence, it's pretty clear, you know.

00:25:38.044 --> 00:25:43.205
So I think any lawsuit is nothing more than they're not really serious about it.

00:25:43.205 --> 00:25:53.067
Because here's the danger of the DLJ If they get to discovery and everybody finds out they had nothing, which is more than likely what they will find out well, the whole world then knows the game, right?

00:25:53.067 --> 00:25:55.779
Oh, we try to bluff people when they're doing this without showing you what we have.

00:25:55.779 --> 00:26:01.398
Or if they go all the way through the trial and lose, then there's no upside.

00:26:01.398 --> 00:26:15.722
So either they get to discovery and they're exposed Okay, or they go all the way through trial and they lose, which then sends the message to the rest of the country, or this would never occur.

00:26:15.722 --> 00:26:17.268
They get to trial and they win.

00:26:17.288 --> 00:26:30.213
Well, that's still a downside of the DOJ, because Then the city of Phoenix can appeal federal takeover of a police department all the way to the US Supreme Court, and it's a direct violation of the 10th Amendment.

00:26:30.213 --> 00:26:31.579
It's clearly unconstitutional.

00:26:31.579 --> 00:26:34.027
If you read the 10th Amendment, it doesn't take a scholar to figure this out.

00:26:34.027 --> 00:26:37.808
Federal government cannot control local entities.

00:26:37.808 --> 00:26:39.566
It's just as clear as day.

00:26:39.566 --> 00:26:46.464
The reason it's still in place is it's like any law until the law is challenged on constitutional grounds, it stays in place.

00:26:46.464 --> 00:26:49.065
Well, no one's ever taken the DOJ that far.

00:26:49.065 --> 00:27:06.592
They usually get scared before that and they pull back, and so there's no upside whatsoever for the DOJ in the future, with the exception of trying to convince the decision makers to just sign it, and that is probably what's going to be going on hardcore from here until up to discovery.

00:27:06.592 --> 00:27:08.506
You have anything you disagree with about that?

00:27:09.700 --> 00:27:10.663
I think that's spot on.

00:27:10.663 --> 00:27:17.184
The one thing I would actually add to that whole thing is that you know defending a lawsuit is expensive.

00:27:17.184 --> 00:27:18.722
I'll give you that.

00:27:18.722 --> 00:27:33.031
But I guarantee you it's less to defend a lawsuit that's frivolous than it is to enter into a consent decree and the amount of money that you have to spend up for to get it going, and then the yearly costs, you're going to be saving a ton of money by fighting.

00:27:34.063 --> 00:27:41.869
Oh yeah, there's no question, the DOJ will threaten to pull federal grant money Doesn't matter, you're richer by turning it down because you don't get that much compared to what it costs.

00:27:41.869 --> 00:27:48.367
And then whatever's litigation cost is not going to be anything close to the first year cost of a consent decree.

00:27:48.367 --> 00:27:50.247
So they'll use all that right.

00:27:50.247 --> 00:28:03.911
And it's just amazing to me that an entity that is, you know, enticed with, you know, investigating departments are operating in this fashion, and I have no doubt that 30 years ago this was good, well-intentioned, right.

00:28:03.911 --> 00:28:07.994
But, man, there's a different philosophy, a different ideology now.

00:28:07.994 --> 00:28:11.167
That makes this one of the most destructive things that professions face.

00:28:11.167 --> 00:28:16.846
And I can't thank you enough, darrell, for you know you're being a little modest here, but you're kind of a one-man pony here.

00:28:16.846 --> 00:28:23.565
Making all this operate and communication alone has gotten us to this point and you're the head of that.

00:28:23.565 --> 00:28:26.588
So the entire profession owes you gratitude.

00:28:26.588 --> 00:28:32.925
And if someone was facing this now, darrell, someone's out there and they're afraid of the DOJ coming or they're under investigation.

00:28:32.925 --> 00:28:34.711
What advice would you give them?

00:28:35.721 --> 00:28:42.145
Well, the best advice is to expose the DOJ for what they are to the community, to the elected, to the mayor.

00:28:42.145 --> 00:28:57.425
I mean, knowledge is power and if those people the decision makers in the community, who informed the decision makers of what the community wants know the truth that the DOJ hates to be exposed, they don't want this exposed.

00:28:57.425 --> 00:29:06.949
So talk to whoever talk to the media, talk to national leaders, talk to other people who are under a consent decree from, you know, union labor.

00:29:06.949 --> 00:29:08.332
Talk to mayors.

00:29:08.332 --> 00:29:15.708
I mean our mayor actually been out and contacted all the mayors that are currently under decree and had nothing good to say about decrees.

00:29:15.708 --> 00:29:18.105
So communication is the key.

00:29:18.741 --> 00:29:24.263
Yeah, you know, I think there's probably a way that this could work, but it's not working in the way they've operated.

00:29:24.263 --> 00:29:34.105
Whether they're doing this, like if there are departments that truly need oversight, there's probably a way to make it work, but it's clearly not working in this format and they're way over their skis on this.

00:29:34.105 --> 00:29:35.326
And they've gotten pretty lax.

00:29:35.326 --> 00:29:44.479
Today's just thinking the city's just going to sign up for a couple hundred million dollar bill without even reading it Right, and even fact, when they showed it, if they were able to show it to you, darrell.

00:29:44.479 --> 00:29:45.163
This is the other thing.

00:29:45.163 --> 00:29:48.865
When they do their press conference, if they do it, they're only going to show the public a summary report.

00:29:48.865 --> 00:29:51.280
That's not the investigation I could have.

00:29:51.280 --> 00:29:53.688
I could summarize anything and make it sound one way Right.

00:29:53.688 --> 00:29:57.667
So that's the, that's the importance of sort of getting underneath that summary report.

00:29:57.667 --> 00:29:59.011
What do they actually know?

00:29:59.011 --> 00:30:02.250
And you got to remember they're pulling from 10 years of information.

00:30:02.250 --> 00:30:04.949
I could look at any organization over the course of 10 years.

00:30:04.949 --> 00:30:06.605
I can give you a few examples more than likely.

00:30:06.605 --> 00:30:08.205
So we know the game there.

00:30:08.667 --> 00:30:15.244
But Phoenix has done an incredible job laying the groundwork, because if Phoenix was not a good department, I wouldn't have you on the show right now, I wouldn't be talking about this right now.

00:30:15.244 --> 00:30:21.484
I'm clearly enraged because I know how good of a department Phoenix has and they're still being bullied by this entity.

00:30:21.484 --> 00:30:24.583
That obviously doesn't have enough to do, and so that's the only reason I'm talking about it.

00:30:24.583 --> 00:30:26.146
But you guys did the right things.

00:30:26.146 --> 00:30:31.621
You've laid the groundwork, you've been reforming, you've I mean you're probably forming more than I would even like, right I mean.

00:30:31.621 --> 00:30:40.521
So I mean you really go above and beyond to try to appease a lot of different entities, and some of it has certainly helped your agency, and you recognize that you can get better.

00:30:42.102 --> 00:30:47.968
And the DOJ does nothing for that and ultimately, it's one of the weakest leadership things you could ever.

00:30:47.968 --> 00:30:49.511
You could ever do.

00:30:49.511 --> 00:31:10.505
I'm thinking about it If you're in Phoenix right now and you've got a chief and you've got a command staff and you've got officers, and you've got supervisors, and you've got a mayor and you've got city counselors All of them have oversight over that police department, from your chief to your city counselors and and, and you pick the DOJ to come in and help your department, you can't do it yourself.

00:31:10.505 --> 00:31:14.308
It's almost the biggest, weakest leadership decision.

00:31:14.328 --> 00:31:19.609
I've ever heard that we are welcoming the DOJ to a department because we have obviously failed.

00:31:19.609 --> 00:31:23.867
That's why you're welcoming there, so we obviously have the ability to correct us ourselves.

00:31:23.867 --> 00:31:24.589
We're the experts.

00:31:24.589 --> 00:31:25.760
Phoenix has shown that.

00:31:25.760 --> 00:31:29.789
Your, your, your staff and that document is incredible.

00:31:29.789 --> 00:31:30.811
I'll put that in the show notes.

00:31:30.811 --> 00:31:31.593
I can't reiterate that.

00:31:31.593 --> 00:31:39.028
The show is exactly the improvements Phoenix has made and that certainly doesn't help the DOJ because you've almost, once again, strategic communication.

00:31:39.028 --> 00:31:43.737
You've told your public what you've done before the DOJ saying anything.

00:31:43.737 --> 00:31:46.045
That certainly has to hurt their future efforts.

00:31:47.461 --> 00:31:48.566
I would imagine it did.

00:31:48.566 --> 00:31:50.306
I've imagined it did.

00:31:50.306 --> 00:32:00.345
In fact, I think there's actually a more comprehensive report that is being prepared that will show even further back that we have been.

00:32:00.345 --> 00:32:06.909
We have a history of of self-assessment and self-correction, so when that comes out, that'll get published as well.

00:32:07.140 --> 00:32:11.070
So yeah, there's just no reason why we go into this stuff blindly.

00:32:11.070 --> 00:32:16.022
I really commend you for sort of making sure that people were being communicated with and your public knew.

00:32:16.022 --> 00:32:19.288
You may not realize this, but the studies are out there.

00:32:19.288 --> 00:32:21.548
If Phoenix avoids this, you're literally saving lives.

00:32:21.548 --> 00:32:22.381
I mean literally.

00:32:22.381 --> 00:32:25.249
Where consent decrees are, violence increases.

00:32:25.249 --> 00:32:29.990
Roland Fryer, Harvard Economist, has done exhaustive studies on this, peer reviewed research.

00:32:29.990 --> 00:32:34.270
I mean literally by avoiding a consent decree, lives are saved.

00:32:34.420 --> 00:32:39.044
It's really unfortunate we're in a position of law enforcement where we don't have to talk about this Like this should be a hard no.

00:32:39.044 --> 00:32:51.462
Every time the DOJ thinks they got you on something will take us to court and prove it, like everybody else has to do, and hopefully we can convince people and educate them enough to where I call it the Phoenix model right.

00:32:51.462 --> 00:32:58.065
All Phoenix did was communicate to their residents and communicate to their department exactly what this was.

00:32:58.065 --> 00:33:03.531
And next thing you know we're sitting here talking about January 11th and whatever the future may be.

00:33:03.531 --> 00:33:05.941
So, Darrell, I can't thank you enough.

00:33:05.941 --> 00:33:06.903
I mean it has been.

00:33:06.903 --> 00:33:08.809
I never thought I would see it.

00:33:08.809 --> 00:33:16.372
I've seen so much destruction with these things I never thought anybody would stand up, and a lot of people in Phoenix have a lot to be proud of, Darrell.

00:33:16.452 --> 00:33:17.219
Bock, yes, you do.

00:33:17.219 --> 00:33:25.685
I tell you the men and women who serve on this department, they do so with wholeheartedly a service oriented mindset.

00:33:25.685 --> 00:33:31.119
This is noise that they don't let affect their work product.

00:33:31.119 --> 00:33:33.347
They're out there serving the community each and every day.

00:33:33.347 --> 00:33:39.472
They leave it to me to take on this challenge and do the best that we can for them.

00:33:39.472 --> 00:33:45.884
I mean without those folks out there doing the job the right way every day, it wouldn't be easy to defend.

00:33:46.461 --> 00:33:48.970
Darrell Creepley, I certainly appreciate you.

00:33:48.970 --> 00:33:50.747
I appreciate everything you're doing.

00:33:50.747 --> 00:33:53.969
Please pass on my gratitude to your personnel.

00:33:53.969 --> 00:33:55.484
You've done an incredible job.

00:33:55.484 --> 00:33:59.911
But thank you for coming on and kind of telling a more global audience what you're dealing with there in Phoenix.

00:33:59.911 --> 00:34:01.826
Everyone should be paying attention to this.

00:34:01.826 --> 00:34:04.387
This matters in the profession.

00:34:04.387 --> 00:34:08.791
I know your organizations that supposedly support us aren't talking about, but that doesn't matter.

00:34:08.791 --> 00:34:19.353
We need to understand this completely, because this stuff is not going to go away anytime soon until we stand up and understand exactly what it's doing to our communities and it's not helping.

00:34:19.353 --> 00:34:22.610
It was helping, we wouldn't be having the conversation, but it's certainly not helping.

00:34:22.610 --> 00:34:25.429
So, darrell, thank you so much for being here on the show.

00:34:26.342 --> 00:34:27.085
I appreciate you having me.

00:34:27.085 --> 00:34:27.827