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Feb. 2, 2024
Imposters Among Us with Turk Gallagher
Turk Gallagher isn't just another voice in the maze of law enforcement; he's a beacon of truth in a world where leadership can often falter in the face of adversity. Our latest conversation peels back the layers of command, revealing how a true leader must not only don the badge but also the mantle of responsibility with an authentic heart. Turk's book, "Imposters on the Throne, Warriors in the Shadows," frames our dialogue as we dissect the leadership crisis plaguing the force and the transformative power of confronting internal challenges.
Feelings of disenchantment aren't uncommon among the ranks, but they're symptoms of a larger disease – the cultural fallout from a lack of transparency and a move towards self-preservation over service. We tackle the hard truths about 'incestual leadership' where negative traits breed in the shadows of authority, and how this can spiral into a toxic work environment. Yet, it's not all grim; we discuss how brave individuals can be catalysts for change and the importance of recognizing when it's time to part ways with a system that no longer serves its people or its purpose.
As Turk concludes, we are reminded that courageous leadership is more than just a concept; it's the very essence that can rewrite the narrative of law enforcement for the better.
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Transcript
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It's just, it's an ongoing thing.
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Where it used to be one for all and all for one, and when these individuals that don't know what they're doing and have been stabbing people in the back for so long, it is now more of a all for me and none for the type of mentality.
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Welcome back to the show.
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I'm so honored that you're here with us today and I'm excited about the guest that we have.
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Today's guest is Turk Gallagher.
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He's a 15 year veteran in law enforcement who has served as a jail deputy patrol officer, canine handler, swat shield operator, fto detective it goes on and on.
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That's just to name a few positions.
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Turk was born and raised in the state of Iowa and he met his amazing wife better say that of 17 plus years in high school.
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They have three beautiful children and many four legged friends and a family.
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Turk is one of the hosts of the spinning our gears podcast Excellent podcast, very edgy.
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I love it.
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You got to check it out.
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We will talk about that today and he is the author of imposters on the throne, warriors in the shadows exposing poor leadership tactics during tough times.
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Turk Gallagher, how are you doing, sir?
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Good, how are you sir?
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I got really excited when the title caught my eye of your book, and I have, of course, written a leadership book in the past.
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I like to read what other people have probably of them out, and for the most part to be honest no offense to these authors that are doing great work they all read like a John Maxwell book.
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I've kind of read the book before, but when I got your book and I'm pausing as I grab it I thought I was reading my own book, because when I wrote that book no one was saying this stuff.
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And when I read your book, it's almost like chapter two of that, because you expand and you go into detail and you give tips for leaders and tips for line officers.
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Extremely detailed, man, very well done.
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I think it's the first book you've written.
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But I got to tell you, man, in the world of millions and millions of books, you have written one that will stand out, stand the test of time.
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And I just got to ask you, man, where did that come from?
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Because this is some deep stuff, right.
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Well, I got to tell you, man, just hearing that gives me goosebumps.
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And it's such an honor to be on the show and to hear you say that because I, like so many others, look up to you and your viewpoint, your voice.
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You talked about the title and how that was so catchy.
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It was almost harder to figure out a title than it was to write the book.
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I had an original title that just didn't seem to get the point across.
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And so I spent a lot of time with family and friends trying to figure that out, trying to get the right title that would, one, catch people's attention but, two, really get the message across and let people know what they were about to read.
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When it comes to, you know, where was the basis for this?
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A decade of kind of having the wool over my eyes and then finally waking up and seeing what was going on and being put through the ringer and understanding, you know, through shows like the Roll Call Room and the Shield Within and people like you, realizing there was an issue at the forefront that we weren't attacking, that was attacking us and we weren't even realizing it.
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And just realizing that there were, quite frankly, imposters in leadership positions and I'll give the caveat that obviously that's not every leader out there, but there are so many out there that are faking it until they make it, and they have never made it.
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And once they realized that they couldn't do it and they were faking it, they started to push back and started to attack the people that they knew could take their positions, and that was a big part for where that book came from.
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Yeah, a few people that aren't in law enforcement don't realize this, but when you're in a job in law enforcement, many times you're prohibited from speaking out about anything about the department.
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It's written in the policy manual, mainly by, oftentimes cowards that are scared of people having an opinion, but that's a whole other topic.
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But that's why it's so rare to see somebody say this stuff, turk, I mean, I said it on the job.
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The day my book was being published, my editor called me.
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My publisher called me and said hey, you sure you want to do this?
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Well, what are you talking about?
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And they're like well, man, you're still on the job.
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This book is different.
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You are calling out a lot of different things that are happening, very similar to what you've done, turk.
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And of course, I didn't even hesitate.
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I was like why can I call it leadership courageous if I won't even publish a book?
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And so I didn't really believe what my publisher told me until the book was published.
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And you're right, it changes things and you have stepped out here.
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It's the absolute truth.
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They can't, they can't, they can't attack you on the, on the information in the book, but they just attack you personally.
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That's what I have seen for much of my career and I just got to ask you, man, what Are you still on the job?
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Did you write this on the job?
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What's the job say about this?
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Because it is true and we'll talk about why people get upset by this in a minute but what is life like after the book came out?
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So I am still on the job, but I'm not at the agency that I was at that was causing so many problems.
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I talked about it in the book a little bit, but there was a real turning point where my wife kind of opened my eyes even more than they already were, and I realized that I had to get out of that situation because it was.
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It was making me a worse person, it was affecting our family life in ways that I never thought it would, and I knew that I had to get out.
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So I went to a different agency and I Did more research and I reached out more to people at the agency in the area, asking them what they knew about it, before I even put the application in, because I knew that I couldn't make the same mistake twice.
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So the agency that I'm at now is much better.
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There's a lot more common sense, there's a lot more caring there and some actual leadership.
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So when it comes to how the book has changed things, really hasn't been a lot.
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I've been pretty much anonymous for the most part with both the show and the book, so it's not like anyone can go hey, that's so, and so I know who wrote the book, but there hasn't been a whole lot of backlash on where I'm at now.
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People that I'm with love the book.
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They said that it resonates so well with them.
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They love the viewpoints that I gave.
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Now, when it comes from the people at the former agency that I was at, it's been kind of all over the place.
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It's a lot of them have their eyes open and you know, for whatever reason they haven't left Whether it be seniority or just not that point in their lives yet and they tell me how much they love the book and how much it resonates with them, how much they can agree to it.
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But then there's also been the other side of that.
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It's kind of funny.
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I think one person must have read it and realized that Some of the topics were kind of hitting close to home for them and instead of taking that as constructive criticism or moving forward at trying to get better, they had their spouse put a post on Facebook about how the book was trash and not to waste their time buying it, and Some of the comments that followed from that were for people that don't have any idea what the topic was.
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But that's kind of the the ups and downs that I've seen so far after writing it.
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Well, you know, I applaud you because, as you know, there are two paths, so to speak, for success in, I would say, law enforcement rank, because rank does not mean leadership, and One of the past is probably the only path that shoots you up the ranks at a high level, which is follow the narrative act like nothing's wrong, act like we're doing great, don't, don't get out of line, just just stay with it.
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And that has really Inundated the profession, and I think we got away with that Turk for many, many years and tell about Ferguson when things started getting heated up, external forces were making demands, and then it test the leadership you have and we saw the failures exposed about that time.
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Is that sort of your take on it?
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Yeah, I would say so, I think, especially when you start to look at the background of Ferguson and the idea that they were so driven for funds and money and it was really the administration in the city council's pocket and vice versa, as opposed to the administration doing what was right.
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If you were to nail down Sort of the most damaging thing leaders are doing for mental health and wellness, because we know the profession is not retaining the people they used to retain the recruiting all are well aware of.
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I don't call it a recruiting crisis because it's not happening everywhere.
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It's not happening where places are led Well right, it's a sellout for all.
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These leaders say, oh, this is happening everywhere.
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You know it's clearly not, it's only happening where you are because of you, but they don't want to acknowledge that is there.
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What action, predominantly, do you think is is causing this, causing these leaders to do this?
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I already talked about sort of you understand, if you, if you follow the narrative, you'll get ahead, but is there anything else out there that you think that's kind of creating that?
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Well, I think it's a real compound thing.
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I think the first part of it is that you have, you have these leaders that have been, I keep saying, leaders.
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I think we should give that caveat that we obviously they're not leaders.
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They're in these positions of leadership but they're not true leaders and They've been doing it for so long, pushing back for so long that it's been kind of the status quo, and they've given examples of how, if you push back, we're going to, we're gonna out you, we're gonna target you.
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If you try to file the grievance, we're going to turn around and and Write you up for policy violations.
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If you reach out for mental health help, we're going to cast you off to the side and get rid of you, because it's now an issue for our agency.
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I think that's a large part of it, but I think it's just.
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It's an ongoing thing where it used to be one for all and all for one, and when these individuals that don't know what they're doing and have been stabbing people in the back for so long, it is now more of a all for me and none for the type of mentality.
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And when officers start realizing that it takes time before you see that before that wool is kind of pulled back from your eyes.
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We were all rookies once, and it was.
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It was glorious and it was amazing and we were doing, we wanted to do.
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They were great times.
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It took us about three to five years before we got comfortable as a police officer, and then it takes another couple of years before we start to see, hey, maybe that admin isn't there for us, they're only there for themselves.
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Now you've got three to seven years worth of blood, sweat and tears and everything has opened up to you and you kind of realize the situation you're in.
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Well, now, what do I do, you know?
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Do I do I fall in line with them?
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Or is this becoming more of a mental health issue for me that I'm not getting help from up above?
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Yeah, I think when you first date your girlfriend, that puppy love, you don't see the faults, right, same thing as the rookie police officer.
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But then a few months down the line you're going.
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I really don't like that she does that.
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I didn't know that before right.
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And that does compound.
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As you get on into your career you start seeing more and more and more and if it wasn't for pension systems, there probably be nobody staying past that point.
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But you get people kind of locked in at a certain level that end up staying in.
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Minneapolis is a good example.
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They're down, you know, from 900 to 400.
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But the only reason they're there because of the pension system and the tenure of those officers and they're just trying to get there.
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So that's creating a problem and it almost seems like there's no way out of this.
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Because I want to know what your experience is.
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But my experience I've seen I call it incestual leadership, where you got a chief or deputy chief or sheriff and they're doing these.
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You know cowardly things, but the people below them that want to be them start emulating that, thinking that's what success is.
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So the people that are working for some sergeant that goes, oh, my chief's this, but my sergeant's not, they need to be very careful because, depending on who you're around, that sort of spreads through the agency and the culture is run and really at that point it's very difficult to get it back, is it not?
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Yeah, and you know, part of it is hey, I see that this worked for them and I've seen that if I get buddy buddy with them or if I kiss their ass a little bit, if I fall in line with them, I'm going to get what I want.
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And I'm sure that a lot of them are starting off saying, when I get my chance and I get my term, it's not going to be the same way and I'm going to turn back to what I used to be.
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But when you have five, 10 years of kissing somebody's butt and doing everything that they want you to do and doing things how they do, you tend to lose yourself and you tend to forget about all those goals and those ambitions and the passion that you had and the changes that you want to make.
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So, hey, I finally made it to Sergeant.
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How do I make it to Lieutenant?
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Well, I have to keep doing the same things that I've been doing and it turns into that I'm stabbing people in the back and I'm only looking out for myself.
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Yeah, it happens so much.
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We even have a joke about it, right, like you got promoted and when had your spine removed.
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I mean, if it's a joke and we all know the joke.
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That means it's happening in a lot of places.
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So, yeah, in the back title of your book it says exposing poor leadership tactics during tough times.
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So those tough times exposed it.
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We're, and then we have remained in those tough times.
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So the innocence is up.
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We all kind of know there's something wrong, Do we not?
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Yeah, absolutely we do.
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So how do we, how do we start reversing it?
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I mean, obviously, your book is a component, training is a component, but you know, is there a way to reverse it Once the majority of agencies start acting this way?
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Is it?
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Are you able to turn it around?
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So I always had a sergeant that would tell me you know, the grass isn't greener on the other side and my response was, yeah, but sometimes there's just grass.
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You know what I mean.
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Like we're sitting here on dirt and sand hey, at least that place has grass that I can experience.
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I think having that realization that you know, maybe the place you're at now isn't great, but you can go somewhere else.
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Eventually these agencies are going to have to respond and answer to why they can't hire people and why they can't have retention and why their citizens are not receiving the service and the protection they deserve.
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I think that's a big part of it.
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But I also think just having a voice and having many voices get together will eventually start to shift that narrative and start to shift that whole issue that we're having.
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It's going to take time and unfortunately, there's going to be some casualties to it.
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We see that every day where someone finally gets a voice, they stand up for themselves and either they get pushed to the point where they quit or they get pushed to the point where they're fired.
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We need to have more than just one singular voice.
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We need to have a group of people stand up and say what's happening isn't right.
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This is the greatest profession in the world and we need to make it what it once was.
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You have a whole chapter on the warrior.
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I'm not going to go into it, and neither should you, because I need to buy this book if you're just now tuning in.
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We're talking to Tert Gallagher.
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He's the author of just one of the best books you're ever going to read, called Impostors on the Throne, warriors in the Shadows.
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This is really a must have book for anybody out there and you can get that on Amazon all major booksells.
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We'll give you all his contact.
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Later you have this excellent chapter on warriors and the interesting part is a decade ago somebody somewhere questioned the warrior mindset.
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Right, and oh, you can't do this warrior training, you can't do this and that.
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And we let somebody else define what a warrior was.
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Because the real definition of a warrior is not some violent person, it's just somebody prepared to defend others.
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And we know that.
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We know.
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If you look at the definition of guardian award, they're very, very similar definitions.
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But they got our major police organizations got in their head that they need to start pushing the guardian mindset cliches Right.
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And that's what these organizations love.
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They love cliches, they love pledges, they love to virtue signal at the highest.
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It's really ridiculous and they and they do this cliche, you know, of the guardian mindset.
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So everybody starts saying this ends up in recruiting materials.
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It ends up in.
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We don't want to recruit military and we, we need this and we need that.
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I have a theory that that's part of the recruiting problem.
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The personalities and the men and women that have been called to do this job, to stand between good and evil, have basically been told by the leaders we don't want you.
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Yeah, yeah, you've got.
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You got me fired up.
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I got goosebumps.
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Let's go, let's do it.
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I almost want to go into that chapter because, like one of the key things that I hit on in that chapter is all of our school resource officers should be former SWAT members.
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They should be people that where the devil comes to play, you better have former SWAT members there.
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Absa, fucking Lutley.
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They need to be people Again.
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The warrior is not someone looking for violence, but they are absolutely fucking ready for violence if it comes knocking on the door, because they are going to protect themselves.
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They're going to protect the ones they love and they're going to protect the ones that they signed up to protect.
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So school resource officers should not just be the officer friendly, should not just be the shaking hands and kissing babies.
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They should have that trait, they should have that ability.
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But they need to have that ability in the back of their mind, in the back of their body, where, if violence comes knocking, if the devil comes knocking, they can put that switch and they can lay waste at any potential threat to those kids that they are there to protect every single day.
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And that is the issue that we have with the warrior mindset.
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When it comes to admin, all they think about is tactical.
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All they think about is that person walking around with a rifle at all times.
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Look at how long it took so many agencies to get load bearing vests, to save officers backs, to make them much better at their jobs than they were beforehand.
00:17:06.875 --> 00:17:08.077
Why do they not have it?
00:17:08.077 --> 00:17:15.036
Because it looks too tactical, because it's going to give a perception to the community that you are your violent and you are tactical.
00:17:15.665 --> 00:17:17.030
Ok, so get out in front of that.
00:17:17.030 --> 00:17:19.611
Let the community know what a true warrior is.
00:17:19.611 --> 00:17:40.463
Let them know the mindset of a warrior and the fact that, no, we're not going to go around every day trying to hurt people, but when it comes time to protect you, the people that pay our salaries, if we have to, yes, we're going to step up and we're going to get a little bit violent if we need to, but 99.9% of the time, 364 days out of the year, we're not going to be violent.
00:17:40.463 --> 00:17:45.194
We're just going to have that mindset that gets us home safely and gets you home safely as well.
00:17:46.136 --> 00:17:47.319
Yeah, if anybody needed to know.
00:17:47.319 --> 00:17:53.497
One single issue that exposes the cowards is is you can't even defend this guardian, be warrior Like you.
00:17:53.497 --> 00:18:02.326
Run away from that because, for I don't know, since the beginning of law enforcement, no, but it's ever questioned it and then all of a sudden, a few years ago, you're somehow these militaristic, racist people.
00:18:02.326 --> 00:18:11.422
If you wear gear that you need for your job and we have not been able to defend that, it's, we think, by just giving in and Talking this guardian language.
00:18:11.422 --> 00:18:18.474
That, by the way, nobody screamed for a guardian at the pulse nightclub and nobody screamed for a guardian it at Stonewall Jackson school, all these other things, right.
00:18:18.474 --> 00:18:19.016
So it's.
00:18:19.016 --> 00:18:24.005
They're lying to you by acting like they're offended by this and we bought right into it.
00:18:24.005 --> 00:18:35.407
Even in the case of the recent document from the ICP that they produced, a document from on recruiting and retention, they list in there to only recruit guardians.
00:18:35.407 --> 00:18:40.403
They're still playing these stupid games and and nobody is speaking out about it.
00:18:40.403 --> 00:18:41.807
And if you do, get ready, right?
00:18:43.536 --> 00:18:44.740
Yeah, absolutely, and it's.
00:18:44.740 --> 00:18:59.586
We're seeing this perpetuate itself over and over again, with people that shouldn't be in the profession, get called upon to violent situations or to major situations and they vapor lock and they're not.
00:18:59.586 --> 00:19:08.415
They're not rising to that level that they should be at Because they were recruited as the guardian, not as the guardian warrior or as the warrior and it.
00:19:08.415 --> 00:19:20.727
It blows my mind because so many of these people in charge of recruiting they're gonna have a lieutenant Dave Grossman book on their desk, they're gonna have a jocowolik book on their desk, but they're not gonna live up to what those books even say.
00:19:20.727 --> 00:19:22.241
It's all fluff for them.
00:19:22.241 --> 00:19:23.528
It's something to put on their resume.
00:19:23.528 --> 00:19:28.055
Yeah, I read the book, I can lead people, but I'm not gonna actually use what those books said.
00:19:29.342 --> 00:19:36.589
Yeah, you nailed it, and it's taken me several years of Speaking and writing and talking to people to finally sort of figure out the issue.
00:19:36.589 --> 00:19:43.234
And recently I kind of came up with it, which is we have the most head knowledge in history on leadership but the least practical knowledge.
00:19:43.234 --> 00:19:48.411
We're not pretty into practice, which is just horrific, and it's affecting the line officer.
00:19:48.411 --> 00:19:51.663
I used to say to people hey, the chief can't affect you, you're just gonna do your job.
00:19:51.663 --> 00:19:55.115
But it's gotten so bad now where it's affecting the street cop.
00:19:55.115 --> 00:19:58.104
What's happened at the top and what are you seeing and hearing out there?
00:19:58.104 --> 00:20:01.801
Because I know you're like me, you're getting these messages on the backside, telling, telling you these stories.
00:20:01.801 --> 00:20:04.067
What are you hearing from others and how it's affected them?
00:20:05.140 --> 00:20:05.971
So I'm seeing a lot here.
00:20:05.971 --> 00:20:13.548
First, I'm seeing people in in positions of leadership that are using the entire training budget on themselves because it pads that resume for one.
00:20:13.548 --> 00:20:29.765
I'm also seeing and you know, maybe you can kind of blame COVID for this or they're using COVID as a crutch for this but I'm seeing so much online training supplement real hands-on or even in the classroom training, which I think is a huge detriment to this career field.
00:20:29.765 --> 00:20:35.795
You're not going to go to a mechanic that got their degree online that the only experience they have is watching a YouTube video.
00:20:35.795 --> 00:20:36.842
You're not going to trust them to change your breaks.
00:20:36.842 --> 00:20:37.970
You're not going to trust them to change your breaks.
00:20:38.290 --> 00:20:54.112
Why would you trust someone who carries a gun in a badge and can can arrest someone or kill someone if need be, who only has training over the past two, three years online from places that are usually just covering training for a policy coverage or a Liability coverage?
00:20:54.112 --> 00:20:56.336
You're not gonna do that and you don't want that.
00:20:56.336 --> 00:20:57.259
You're not getting what.
00:20:57.259 --> 00:20:58.962
You're not getting a return of investment on that.
00:20:58.962 --> 00:21:03.710
So those are the two big things that I'm seeing with training right now and the deficiencies that we're having.
00:21:03.710 --> 00:21:06.295
I'm seeing budgets get cut.
00:21:06.295 --> 00:21:22.343
I'm seeing denial of training because it would force overtime or force a shift to minimum, and I'm just seeing a huge supplement of no, we don't want you to go do hands-on stuff, we want you to sit behind the computer screen and listen to someone who's got a degree in some bullshit course.
00:21:23.590 --> 00:21:32.642
Yeah, you, you nailed that because I have been in training for 20 years, traveling the country, and I can tell you there are parts of this country right now that are still shut down.
00:21:32.642 --> 00:21:37.951
They don't tell you they're shut down, but they can't do anything that used to be able to do and that's you know you can.
00:21:38.172 --> 00:21:43.712
You can imagine yourself what part of the country that is mainly East Coast and West Coast, but that's that's happening.
00:21:43.712 --> 00:21:44.875
And cops are suffering.
00:21:44.875 --> 00:21:47.422
And then the staffing issues on top of it.
00:21:47.422 --> 00:21:49.114
They don't let them go training because of that.
00:21:49.114 --> 00:21:51.319
So this is now sort of all come to a head.
00:21:51.319 --> 00:21:55.416
All these horrific Leadership decisions and these leaders in position.
00:21:55.416 --> 00:21:56.921
I mean, it's not.
00:21:56.921 --> 00:22:01.276
I don't not sure there's anything else that can be done, but I'm sure they'll think of it.
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