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April 2, 2024
The Politics of Force with Kevin Davis
Discover the intricate balance between integrity and protocol in law enforcement as we welcome Kevin Davis to the show, a distinguished figure with 39 years experience in law enforcement and security along with an induction into the National Law Enforcement Hall of Fame. Kevin sheds light on the complexities officers grapple with in an era where actions are swiftly judged, with an emphasis on the necessity of meticulous investigations over hasty criminal charges. His seasoned perspective unveils the gritty realities of policing and the paramount role of steadfast leadership in navigating the mounting scrutiny faced by those in uniform.
As we converse with Kevin, his personal sagas of moral fortitude resonate deeply, offering listeners a glimpse into the profound impact of ethical leadership. His tales hold lessons for those in any field—courage in the face of adversity can define a career and influence an entire industry. Kevin's candid reflections on confrontations and legal battles underscore the challenges that come with upholding one's principles, yet also how such challenges can ultimately reinforce the integrity of the law enforcement community.
Finally, we delve into the advancements and hurdles introduced by technology in policing, particularly body-worn cameras and their implications on public perception. The conversation expands to cover proactive measures for handling critical incidents and the evolving landscape of police training amidst new policy changes. Through the lens of Kevin's expertise, we confront the pressing need for enhanced training and support for officers, while also scrutinizing the profound personal consequences they face when thrust into the legal limelight. Join us for an episode that promises not just a discussion but a comprehensive exploration of the principles and pressures shaping the future of law enforcement.
Article Discussed In This Episode: Let Them Shine
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Transcript
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I wrote a number of years ago in my book that we were coming at a time when, unfortunately, agencies, district attorneys or prosecutors whatever would rather charge an officer and make them prove their innocence than vindicate them in a professional investigation, and unfortunately, I didn't know how accurate that statement was going to be.
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I'm honored to have on the show Kevin Davis.
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Kevin's a veteran of over 39 years in the security and law enforcement field.
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That included corrections patrol, narcotics investigations, swat team leader and over 25 years as a use of force instructor, police and private citizen firearms instructor and expert on police and tactics training and use of force.
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He's the author of what I consider to be the Bible on the topic of use of force.
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He didn't call it that, but it's called the use of force investigations a manual for law enforcement, and he's also written a book titled Citizens Guide to Arm Defense.
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Kevin's trained thousands of law enforcement officers and private citizens in firearms tactics and use of force, and he's consulted and trained police, labor unions, investigators and agencies on the legal aspects of use of force and use of force investigations.
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He's truly an expert in the field of use of force and he's consulted as an expert witness on multiple cases across the country and he was inducted in the 2019 National Law Enforcement Hall of Fame.
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It's my honor to have Kevin Davis here with us.
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Kevin, how are you doing, brother?
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I'm doing well.
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What's Hall of Fame?
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That Hall of Infamy, by the way.
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Well, you know it says something about Kevin.
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I want the audience to know this.
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Kevin did not even put on his website that he's in the Hall of Fame.
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Now can you imagine any other Hall of Fame member in any other profession just omitting that from the website?
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And so that's something we often talk here at Courageous Leadership.
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Courageous leaders, you know, at the end of the day they're very, very humble, and I've known Kevin for many years.
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He's a very humble, quiet guy, Unless you're going against him on a stand, of course, but he's very quiet and humble and kind of unassuming.
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But, man, brother, what a lifetime of achievements.
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I'm so honored that you're here.
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Things are going well for you.
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They are.
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As you know, I retired from full-time law enforcement in April of last year and my wife says you retired from full-time law enforcement but not working full-time because you know my pursuit in the use of forest realm has increased tremendously and you know I've been very, very busy this year, which is a double-edged sword Travis because it number one, business is good but sadly, number two, almost all my cases are based on a law enforcement officer being charged with criminal violations and that's the part that cuts the most.
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And you know, here we are.
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Yeah, and I want to thank you for your going, for your bold and courageous stance on, really, this entire issue of use of forest.
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I mean, I know it feels weird to say that.
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Thank you for being courageous, for just telling the truth, but that is the time we're in, is it not?
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Oh, it's definitely, but unfortunately the times that we're in, and you know, just you know, I wrote a number of years ago in my book that we were coming to the time when, unfortunately, agencies, district attorneys or prosecutors whatever would rather charge an officer and make them prove their innocence than vindicate them in a professional investigation.
00:03:48.617 --> 00:03:53.931
And unfortunately, I didn't know how accurate that statement was going to be.
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Yeah, unfortunately, we've had leaders like yourself through the years to sort of sound a warning call.
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I know I myself I started talking about the recruiting issue years ago and everyone just ignored me and they thought it was crazy.
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You know, and here we are and you were doing the same thing with use of force and how that was leading.
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We went from seeing an isolated case here or there that looked weird to darn near every day we see one that looks weird.
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And I will say I know you talked about your busy or never, and I don't want to say I'm glad you're retired, but I'm glad you're a service to the profession, but you didn't wait till retirement to kind of take a bold stance on issues.
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I mean you, you spent a career spanning three decades of being very courageous and doing the right thing and I want to ask you a couple of questions.
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I'm very curious to dive into it.
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This may shock you, kevin.
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There's not many folks like you around.
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That's why we're pushing this courageous leadership as much as we can, because we need more of it.
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But my first question is why do you think that was what's in you to make you kind of go?
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You know what?
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I know the whole crowd's going this way, but I'm going to go the other way.
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Is there?
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Can you, can you dial it into me and let our audience know?
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What do you think it was?
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Wow, I would say completely out of the law enforcement realm, just family and church and religion.
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In terms of being raised with ethics, integrity and morality and character, I mean it meant more to me.
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And you know, somebody said I don't know who this is can be attributed to in terms of a quote but they said, you know, in terms of teaching, that the students don't care how much you know until they know how much you care.
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And you know, and it's so true, and that informed my entire training career and then, as it's gone on, I just one of those people that has always spoken truth to power and you know I took my lumps along the way, but it made for an interesting career.
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So probably just the way I was raised.
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Well, it's interesting you say that I I sound like I was raised very similar to you a group and a family with a mother and father that would just bust my tail if I did turn the wrong way and and I was very much raising a Christian home with ethics and integrity.
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That was everything.
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And I couldn't even remember back in high school like my friends coming up to me saying, do, why are you, why are you taking this route?
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Like just go with us, or why, how come you're going against this or that?
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I mean it for so I can't really take credit for it.
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To be honest, kevin, kind like you, it was just kind of in me from beginning, but you said it made for interesting career.
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That is not always a comfortable thing to be, to be this courageous individual, courageous leader.
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Just, do you have any stories that tell us about your career and kind of how that affected?
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Because I am, I'm convinced there's more of us out there than we know but people, unfortunately, are unwilling to go there because of it can be uncomfortable out there in the world and in your job.
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Kind of tell us about that.
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Well, you know, in law enforcement in general, I mean, I butted heads with, unfortunately with administrators, and not all of them.
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I don't want to say that.
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There are some that I would follow through the gates of hell and literally did in my career, you know, and others who felt, for whatever reason, felt threatened by me, and I think you've run into this as well.
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The more you educate yourself, the more training you get, the more expertise you develop.
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You tend to ruffle feathers on the tech test takers.
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You know, those people that you know want to go.
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I never wanted to get promoted, so my object was not to educate myself in terms of seeking promotion.
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I educated myself because that's the way I was raised in.
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My family were educators, actually, and they constantly were going to courses and constantly seeking out.
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You know my dad was to short of his, you know go for his PhD when he retired from teaching.
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My brother has a master's degree in teaching and you know, so they were always seeking out training and educating themselves and then, as I did that, first of all to improve my performance on the street and it did I mean seeking out advanced training and learning about use of force saved my bacon innumerable times.
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I really believe that training saved lives.
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So I did that as my goal as a street officer and that attracted attention I sought out because I was going to be an elementary school teacher, if you can imagine that.
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But I found that I didn't have the patience for it.
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So I went into law enforcement.
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After I had begun working at a rock concert facility I had an uncle that was a retired Sergeant from the Marine Corps who was like a second father to me, very much promoted my law enforcement ambitions and everything.
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So as I went that way and as I began training and attending advanced training that people say hey, look at Katie, he's going all these courses and everything.
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How about if we bring him as an instructor in the basic academy?
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I had great supporters in that regard, including Jesus Police, but others in the ranks in the upper management felt threatened by me.
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They didn't want to be told by a patrolman that, hey, this use of force that they thought was bad was good.
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Hey, you really botched this use of force, investigation etc.
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They felt threatened.
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So that manifested.
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Just a short story is that I was transferred out of the training bureau because I had written in a paternal order police newsletter that are current at that time.
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Well, we call a fast tracker program.
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In other words, we bring people in that had basic academies from other agencies or a guns from a basic academy.
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We would hire them, give them a few weeks training, put them out on the street.
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It wasn't working.
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I mean the undeniable wasn't working.
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And I said that chief of the police at the time, who was a former Phoebe, transferred me out of the training bureau illegally and properly, and so the FOP came to me and said, hey, let's sue him.
00:11:00.621 --> 00:11:04.412
This is wrong and we did and we won, and I want to.
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In addition to a monetary settlement, I actually got a letter of apology from the chief of police.
00:11:11.139 --> 00:11:13.076
So who gets that Travis?
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Well, there's not many chiefs that will want to write that and you know Dale Stockton wrote a great article on lawfishercom many years ago called never outshine the master, and he's referring to you and a few others.
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I may have been, may or may not have been, involved in that article.
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Hard to believe if you were.
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Some of the things that would occur.
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And what I've always told people is I never wanted to outshine anybody, kevin.
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I just wanted to do what I love to do.
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I don't want anyone's rank, I don't want anybody's job, I just want to do what I enjoy doing, when I'm passionate about.
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But not everybody takes it that way, but I really appreciate what you've always done.
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You know it's one thing to keep your mouth shut in your career and then get out of your career and I see people do this and they write all their articles and they attack people.
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But you have always been on the cutting edge of just telling the way it is, telling the truth and people don't like it.
00:11:58.275 --> 00:12:00.076
Well, they're just going to have to get over it, right?
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Because we're kind of in this world where we think feelings and emotion outrank the truth and that's kind of the world you're living in in use of force.
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I mean, you've been doing this a very long time when it comes to use of force, expert witness stuff and training, and you kind of got a really good beat on the climate out there.
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When did you see this starting to change?
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You said you kind of called it a long time ago, but at what point did you see this sort of changing pretty drastically to where this is going to become a very common occurrence where legal justified force would become criminal?
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Well, somewhere around 2012 is when I started to perceive this, and it was mostly based and this was, of course, years before Black Lives Matter surfaced.
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But I had noticed that the what I had come to refer to as the politics of force was impacting the outcome of force investigations.
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In other words, let's just forget about the facts, the realities as developed by a proper investigation, let's just go with what we feel.
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Buddy of mine and I don't know whether you know Bob Denton, a dear friend of mine and a PhD, said call it phenomenology.
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In other words, it's not based on the facts and the totality of the circumstances, it's based on what you feel or your opinion, and that has increased over the years and as now that we have, by war cameras and so much video available now, although we see officers who are being vindicated by BWC video, we also see the weaponization of that same system, or those systems against officers, and a lot of it is by people that don't know their derriere from a hole in the ground.
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And it's just sad that, whether there's some talking heads on TV or news or whatever, or a special interest group, that now we are to the point where let's not even wait until the investigation is completed, let's charge the officer and make them prove their innocence.
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Well, and we know that the vast majority of citizens from the general social survey, they don't understand what legal force is and, by the way, why would they?
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They're not in law enforcement, they haven't had the training, they don't know the case law right, and so that's exactly right.
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And then you show them body worn cameras and it just, and it can be spun by a number of people a certain way.
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And that's where leadership comes in.
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And I'm convinced that if leaders would stick to the facts and stick to the truth and tell the correct context, most of the public follows along in the same breath.
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When you get emotional and you say a bunch of lies, either straight up lies or bio mission, the public, as once again, follows along.
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And so we've seen cases after cases to where this has occurred.
00:15:10.889 --> 00:15:13.860
And really, kevin, what we're talking about here, there's there's a supply and demand issue.
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There's this huge demand for bad cops, use of cops that use too much force, cops that are racist.
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There's this huge demand problem, but the supply is very, very low.
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You know, I don't think either one of us are going to sit here and say that this profession is perfect, because no profession is perfect, but the supply is certainly low and we are supplying millions of videos a day and all they can find typically are just videos where they have to take it out of context and, and you know, and make it seem like it is something that is not, which really is a huge applause to the profession that we.
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There's no other profession that would film their date all day long, you know.
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And, and I would say, what do you have?
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Well, what they have a lot of times is lies.
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I mean the NBA and the Major League Baseball.
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They're taking vacation days off of lies, right, and then they never apologize afterwards, based on some of these incidents.
00:16:04.289 --> 00:16:08.621
And so, when it comes to body worn cameras, you mentioned the weaponization of that.
00:16:08.621 --> 00:16:10.135
What should leaders be doing?
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Because let's just assume they all have them.
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That's what we're headed to.
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About 85 percent have them now.
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The rest of the profession is going to have them soon.
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We wear body worn cameras.
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We think that it's being done to help us, but, as you said, it's it's actually the politicians and the activists and the groups out there actually using it to hurt us.
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What can leaders do up front with body worn cameras to make sure they're not using that way?
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Well, one of the big problems we did in this my opinions or my beliefs were formed by working three years in a body worn camera unit at the end of my career.
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So I've reviewed thousands of hours of BWC video footage as well as multiple officer involved shootings.
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Oh and, by the way, a former chief of police in mind said to me when I went to the unit I keep in mind I had worked for over 25 years teaching use of force and defending that agency in civil cases.
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He said you know you're not going to be reviewing use of force video.
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And I looked at him and I said no, I didn't know that.
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And then the next thing, you know I'm working on every single officer involved shooting and multiple uses of force, and to the point where he had to give me a letter of commendation for work I had done on our wife's incident, which is kind of funny, but anyhow, the thing is is that when you do, the problem and you know this to be true, travis when law enforcement embraces technology, the problem is that they don't look down the road to the ripples that are going to happen, or looking in the lake for what ripples may occur, and BWC has tremendous ripples.
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First of all, you have to understand the technology, and we don't.
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Very few agencies have a unit capable of looking and doing a use of force analysis.
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They don't have the software, they don't have the education, and so what I did when I went to that unit is put in for training to educate myself on digital video evidence and had the great opportunity to learn from some of the top dogs in the business, including Andrew Fredrich and Grant Fredrich.
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And then we got some.
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I ordered digital video analysis software called InputAce and other software, and so I began breaking these things down and you learn so much about it.
00:18:41.821 --> 00:18:55.646
But here's with BWC you don't have the agencies and administrators, don't have the staffing or don't have the properly trained people when they get these systems to do proper analysis on use of force incidents.
00:18:56.656 --> 00:19:03.894
The courts are sophisticated in terms of their ability AV ability to play this stuff.
00:19:03.894 --> 00:19:12.914
I mean I've had actually homicide cases, murder cases when I worked as an expert for my local county prosecutor's office.
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Where I had to, I was sitting in the witness box.
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I would be asked a question.
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I would have to go out into the floor of the court, watch the video and then go back and answer the question Because they didn't have monitors set up where I could see the video in the grand jury.
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One time on an OIS incident you know that I presented the grand jurors.
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I remember like five of or six of them were gathered around a small monitor in the back of the grand jury room watching the video and then they didn't have a sound bar in the back of the room or any speakers in the back of the room.
00:19:56.426 --> 00:20:09.631
So when the suspect said clearly on video something about a gun, they said we can't hear that, you know, so we weren't sophisticated.
00:20:09.631 --> 00:20:42.790
And then we could go into storage, we could go into records and everything else, but people last on to BWC's who were pushed into these things not knowing the many, many ripples that would occur in the criminal justice system because of them, and primarily the thing when we're talking about officer involved shooting that were serious use of force incidents they don't have the knowledge base to really analyze the digital video evidence.
00:20:43.938 --> 00:20:56.252
Yeah, one of the things I often talked about, I talk about in my seminars, is if an alien came down to earth and they went to YouTube, to police videos, they would think we're shooting people every second of every day because that's the only videos you typically see.
00:20:56.252 --> 00:20:56.914
Because we wait.
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We wait until an open records request comes in for these videos.
00:21:00.914 --> 00:21:10.894
Of course they're not doing open records question on the videos where we do good things and where we help citizens and we protect people, and so really I think it's up upon the leaders to give their community context on what they do.
00:21:10.894 --> 00:21:15.132
I mean the one, the one, the one avenue, kevin, where you can sort of see.
00:21:15.132 --> 00:21:20.747
That was live PD and of course, the activists got that taken off the air because they couldn't let that truth be out.
00:21:20.747 --> 00:21:37.914
But I think we've done a really poor job of letting our community see this great tool we have and letting them see exactly what we do on a day to day basis to give them context, because it's not like Hollywood, it's not like television, it's completely different, and so most people have a very warped reality of what policing is.
00:21:37.914 --> 00:21:47.068
And I'm curious to know you know, you're an expert witness and these officers, everybody on every level on a justified legal use of force.
00:21:47.068 --> 00:21:47.750
They don't do.
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They're not leaders, they're cowards.
00:21:48.892 --> 00:21:53.743
They pass on the buck, they pass in the buck, they go off emotion and it gets to the juries.
00:21:54.415 --> 00:22:00.914
And what I have seen not every time, what I have seen typically is these juries are the first line of defense that actually do the right thing.
00:22:00.914 --> 00:22:11.666
When they hear the evidence, when they hear the facts, when they hear the context, when they hear what the law says and they hear from someone else Like you that can explain that to them, they kind of go oh, what are we doing here?
00:22:11.666 --> 00:22:28.914
Explain that to me, that feeling where you're sitting here watching everybody, from the prosecutor to the police chiefs and the shares and the people in the community and the activist groups just lying and just saying crazy stuff, and then it gets all the way to the end to a jury, and then they go yeah, we get this.
00:22:28.914 --> 00:22:41.949
It kind of tells us your thoughts on that and do you just put do you believe that if we would tell the community those things up front, it would mitigate much of the things that occur through the course of these cases?
00:22:43.151 --> 00:22:44.451
Oh, you're spot on, you know.
00:22:44.451 --> 00:23:08.894
And, by the way, recommendation to the audience if they don't have your book, I highly recommend it because part of being that courageous police leader is to get out in front of this stuff and to explain to the public you know, the legal standards of use of force, as well as how law enforcement is trained and everything we don't do that you know we're so reactive in law enforcement.
00:23:08.894 --> 00:23:23.369
So what you have is I mean, I don't know whether the audience realizes the sophisticated nature of an attorney like Benjamin Crump and the people that he brings in to bear against law enforcement when he takes a case.
00:23:23.369 --> 00:23:39.390
For instance, they have social media experts, they have media relations experts that go out there and they know how to get their version of the story out in front of the public and in the media long before law enforcement.
00:23:39.390 --> 00:23:40.750
You know one of the.
00:23:40.750 --> 00:23:46.258
I would highly recommend a book by Melissa Agnes.
00:23:46.518 --> 00:23:48.019
Yeah, christ's Communication right.
00:23:48.299 --> 00:23:57.410
Oh yeah, excellent book, you know, because she, you know, instead of being reactive, to get ahead of the story and put your version out.
00:23:57.410 --> 00:24:00.013
But, travis, one time I had an OIS.
00:24:00.013 --> 00:24:08.948
It was a cross-racial shooting of an unarmed black male by white officers and I told the bosses where I worked.
00:24:08.948 --> 00:24:13.492
I said, listen, we need to get ahead of this thing, we need to do a preemptive video release.
00:24:13.492 --> 00:24:22.163
But I will create a video with context, I will break it down and I will show frame by frame what the subject did.
00:24:22.163 --> 00:24:25.205
And you know it was like arm twisting.
00:24:26.230 --> 00:24:44.067
I really at one point, you know, I looked at my office and my former partner laughed because I had the mayor, his chief of staff, his media expert, the chief of police, two deputy chiefs of police, a captain, a lieutenant and, oh, the city safety force director.
00:24:44.067 --> 00:24:45.490
All in my office is.
00:24:45.490 --> 00:24:52.657
I broke that shooting down for them frame by frame, and it was took so much arm twisting to get them to do it.
00:24:52.657 --> 00:25:04.012
And you know what I'm going to say this not one complaint, except the media who said that we didn't release the raw video, which was what they wanted, and we didn't get sued.
00:25:04.012 --> 00:25:08.061
They haven't been sued on the case and there were no uprising by the public.
00:25:08.931 --> 00:25:12.417
Yes, it's funny you say that I have exactly the same stories.
00:25:12.417 --> 00:25:18.430
I have stories to where I was able to arm twist and get the video out and we took a very volatile situation and it went calm almost immediately.
00:25:18.430 --> 00:25:31.538
And then I have other situations where they wouldn't do it and things blew up right, and so it's amazing, in 2023, we still have leaders that refuse to do that and it's I don't even know what to say to it, because you're not.
00:25:31.538 --> 00:25:36.410
You're not lying, you're just putting the truth out there with context, because in law enforcement, everything is context.
00:25:36.410 --> 00:25:38.835
But these things occur, kevin.
00:25:38.835 --> 00:25:43.765
These, these tragic events are going to occur as long as human beings are operating in this world.
00:25:43.765 --> 00:25:45.548
They have always occurred.
00:25:45.548 --> 00:25:46.430
They will always occur.
00:25:46.430 --> 00:26:15.128
We have, I mean, we have homeowners that tragically shoot and kill their, their sons or daughters they thought they were burglars Right, we have these horrible things that occur and that doesn't make them criminal, because crimes, crimes need intent, and I think I think where we make a mistake from a leadership standpoint is we set back and we judge these events and we and we throw shade at it, and then we and we think it's not going to happen to us, and you and I both know that many of these events we're talking about or we could talk about are happening in cities you didn't know about before.
00:26:15.148 --> 00:26:16.010
That happened, right?
00:26:16.010 --> 00:26:21.461
And so I think it makes sense for leaders to prepare for these events before they occur.
00:26:21.461 --> 00:26:35.346
You hope, you pray to God they don't occur, but if they do occur, you have to be prepared for that, versus what we've seen now, where it's where they come out and make wildly emotional statements that have no truth or facts behind it.
00:26:35.346 --> 00:26:38.073
That just gets everybody in a tizzy, right.
00:26:38.073 --> 00:26:48.226
And so do you have any suggestions now in a, in a police chief or sheriff or upper management listening right now, where they're in a city and everything's peaceful and calm and this is not happening to them?
00:26:48.670 --> 00:26:53.717
Are there some things they can do now to sort of help when that occurs?
00:26:53.717 --> 00:27:00.185
And we, of course, we hope it doesn't occur, but we work in a, we work in a business that these things unfortunately do occur.
00:27:00.185 --> 00:27:04.116
They don't occur very often, and it's really amazing the millions and millions of contacts we make a year.
00:27:04.116 --> 00:27:06.301
We can name them all on one hand.
00:27:06.301 --> 00:27:07.304
What's happened in recent years?
00:27:07.304 --> 00:27:13.241
Right, so it doesn't occur very often, but what could our leaders do now in anticipation if that was to occur?
00:27:14.490 --> 00:27:17.294
Well, just some pre planning Travis.
00:27:17.294 --> 00:27:22.582
You know that to fill your plan is planning to fail, and here you have the circumstances.
00:27:22.582 --> 00:27:24.924
First of all, let's let's start at the basics.
00:27:24.924 --> 00:27:26.511
Train your people.
00:27:26.511 --> 00:27:30.961
That most of your ability, including confrontation, simulation training, you know.
00:27:30.961 --> 00:27:33.548
Revisit your policy and procedure.
00:27:33.548 --> 00:27:48.385
Make sure it's up to date, make sure it's realistic and make sure that it's not a 30 page thing on what officers can't do, but a short declarative policy on what they can do and the standards that they're going to be able to countable to.
00:27:49.351 --> 00:27:50.913
Next is train people.
00:27:50.913 --> 00:28:01.410
Train your officers on use of force, like I said, and actually put them in scenario based training so they get that you know that an oculation effect from good, solid training.
00:28:01.410 --> 00:28:05.218
Train your supervisors to conduct proper investigations.
00:28:05.218 --> 00:28:07.804
Train internal affairs and command staff.
00:28:07.804 --> 00:28:19.115
Oh, by the way, unfortunately it's too hard to get out of in service training, instead of just going and learning, they spend more time trying to get out of it.
00:28:20.117 --> 00:28:29.708
But actually go and learn what the troops are doing and then create the structures, including people that can deal with digital video evidence.
00:28:29.708 --> 00:28:46.813
There are police information officers that are properly trained, that can actually communicate to the public and can actually say a sentence without stumbling, that are savvy people that understand this stuff, including use of force.
00:28:46.813 --> 00:28:55.295
Because let's be honest, travis, the number one thing in law enforcement under the microscope right now is the use of force, specifically the use of deadly force.
00:28:55.295 --> 00:28:59.854
And yet we sit around, twiddle our thumbs until an incident happens.
00:28:59.854 --> 00:29:06.256
And then we have this strategy where we circle the wagons and say what should we do now?
00:29:06.256 --> 00:29:20.778
Do that advanced training, get the structures in place so that when one of these incidents happens, you're not reactive, you're actually putting into effect the plans that you made prior.
00:29:21.444 --> 00:29:24.535
Yeah, what you just mentioned is a very strong principle in trade leadership.
00:29:24.535 --> 00:29:25.910
We often talk about called leave.
00:29:25.910 --> 00:29:39.618
No doubt, like you should build your police department around that if anybody was to attack any aspect of it, that, if they tried to attack it, that they would look foolish because you've left, no doubt that you have one of the best police departments around.
00:29:39.618 --> 00:29:43.492
And that is in all the areas you just talked about training, policy, procedures, all that stuff.
00:29:43.492 --> 00:29:45.210
But we just don't see that right.
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