Aug. 26, 2024
Command College Insights: Building Tomorrow's Leaders Today
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Can effective leadership transform law enforcement agencies from within? Join us as we sit down with Justin King, a retired DEA Special Agent now serving as the Chief Product and Strategy Officer for the National Command and Staff College. From his military origins to his impactful career with the DEA, Justin shares his riveting journey, emphasizing the personal and professional sacrifices that come with a law enforcement career. Learn about the invaluable role his family, especially his wife, played in supporting him through frequent relocations and high-stress situations. This episode provides a candid look at the complexities and rewards of a life dedicated to public service.
Explore the future of leadership in law enforcement as we tackle the critical issue of follow-up and accountability in training programs. Justin introduces us to the innovative methodologies employed at command colleges that ensure leaders remain engaged long after the initial training. Discover how a blend of online coursework, interactive sessions, and capstone projects fosters a culture of continuous learning and development. We delve into the lasting impact these programs have on building a legacy of effective leadership within law enforcement agencies, addressing gaps that traditional programs often overlook.
Witness how genuine leadership and open communication revolutionize organizational culture. We discuss the importance of honest feedback and the necessity of training every member, regardless of rank, to foster accountability and improve performance. Get insights into the MagnusWorks app, a game-changing tool that enhances self-improvement, anonymous feedback, and communication within agencies. As we wrap up, we highlight Justin’s transformative leadership methods and the profound impact they have on creating enduring organizational culture. Don't miss this inspiring conversation designed to ignite the leader within you.
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Transcript
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I think it's important our command and staff leadership program.
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You know we see that leaders at the first level, mid-level, all the way up through executive they need to have an environment where they can actually reflect and talk about what they are, how their personality is and how they are as a leader and what the course does, is it allows the command and staff leadership course and what the course does, is it allows the command staff leadership course it allows self-paced 240 hours online where you're interactive with instructors.
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Welcome to.
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Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates, where leaders find the insights, advice and encouragement they need to lead courageously.
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Welcome back to the show.
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It's my honor to have Justin King on the show of the day, and this is going to be a barn burner.
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Justin's a retired special agent in charge of the DEA and the chief product and strategy officer for the National Command and Staff College.
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He's also the chief strategy officer for Magnus Works.
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His resume is extensive I can't cover everything.
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He has an extensive training record that included a lot of things, including directed training programs in the United States, afghanistan, guatemala, honduras, paraguay, ukraine and other locations.
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Well, man, we probably don't have enough time to get to everything that you've done up until now, but give us a brief summary on just your career and kind of leading up to what you're doing today, and we'll get into the deep part of the leadership part of what you're doing today.
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Because if you're listening early on, you've got to stay tuned to this, because what Justin and his group's involved in is a game changer for law enforcement and we want to dive into that.
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But before that, justin, tell us how you got into law enforcement and how that went.
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I was in the Army, captain Been in for a few years.
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I was prior service, so I was enlisted.
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I knew what I was into and I just started thinking there was more.
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I wanted to do with my life and I had went to a school at Fort Benning, georgia, right before I transferred out to Fort Carson, colorado, and a guy was telling me his brother had joined the FBI and he said you know, my brother said that he kind of wished he would have joined DEA.
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So I started doing some research and one thing led to another.
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I applied and just, I mean, you know, everything they told me could happen happened.
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I went right to the border, right to Laredo, texas, and cut my teeth there.
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And then I got an opportunity to go to the Foreign Deployed Advisory Support Team where we were working counter-narcotics, counter-terrorism operations in Afghanistan, trained with the military to do that, and then was fortunate enough to be embedded with multiple special operations units in tours over there, rotated back to Oklahoma City, my home state, got to do five years there, ultimately promoted, ran a HIDA task force and went back to the FAST program as a team leader and actually did the last deployment to Afghanistan in 2015.
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That we did as a team, our unit and after that, when things started to wind down in Afghanistan, they disbanded the unit.
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I went over to the Office of Training for about a year and then I was fortunate enough to rotate out to Little Rock, arkansas, where I was the Assistant Special Agent in Charge of the State of Arkansas, and I finished up my career in Omaha, nebraska, as the special agent in charge there, where I was blessed to have just phenomenal people throughout my career.
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Omaha was kind of like the icing on the cake.
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I did three years up there and five states the Dakotas, nebraska, iowa and Minnesota so just a really wonderful time.
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I've had a blessed career and it really I will say that I can't believe I get to do what I do and still be part of law enforcement right now.
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Yeah, justin, you kind of described my childhood dream right.
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Like most dreams, they don't always end up that way.
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Once I wasn't going to be a professional baseball player, it was DEA all the way, and here's why my father was a narcotics officer for 24, 25 years.
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So I grew up in the 80s and, as you know, the 80s in narcotics work was Miami Vice for real, and so I was around a lot of his narcotic friends, dea agents, because he worked on task forces.
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I even knew one of the fallen DEA agents, actually ATF agents in Waco, and so my father had pushed federal on me because I think he saw he was my dad.
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So I think he's looking at, okay, federal is more opportunities, this and that.
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And so I had in my head just what you, justin, like.
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I knew, I knew enough information that if I went to the DEA and went overseas, they gave you more money.
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Right, I'm like, oh, I get a 25% bump in salary to go to Guatemala.
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That's awesome.
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Well, that's awesome.
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When you're 18 years old, when you're married with kids, doesn't seem so appealing.
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So kudos to you.
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I'll ask you before we move on so how did you navigate all those moves and all that travel?
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I mean obviously family and all that Talk to us about that portion of it and how you were able to navigate that successfully.
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Well, I couldn't have done it unless I would have married just the most wonderful woman in the world.
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And when I was a young lieutenant at Fort Campbell, kentucky, I met my wife and she's just as strong and she always kept the home fires burning.
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You know, they always say behind a good man, a good woman.
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No, she was right there, right beside me the whole time and she took care of things.
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But you know, it did put a lot of stress and a lot of strain on our family.
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You know I have four daughters and you know, and now I'm a grandfather, you know I have a lot going on but it, you know, you get kind of.
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You have to have that balance and I even remember coming home times whenever you know she still has stuff scheduled and she goes.
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Yeah, yeah, you just got home from a deployment, but we've got a birthday party to go to or something.
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Yeah.
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And help, help me balance.
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But you know, it's just like anything else you can get very, very addicted to the going and running and gunning and the fun stuff you're doing and I would say probably not as well balanced as I should have been back then, and that's one of the things that makes me so passionate about what we're doing now.
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Yeah, what you're doing now.
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We're going to get into the balance, part of the wellness, part of that.
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But you know, I want everyone to recognize this listening, like you and I get on and we talk about this stuff.
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We get on stage, we talk about this stuff.
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None of this could happen, none of my dreams would have come true, without my family, without my wife, right, and I would assume you're the same way.
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Like we get to talk about this cool stuff.
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We did.
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You know things that people have to go to the movies to watch and we got to do it in real life.
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But none of that exists without your support structure and I wish I would have recognized that IQ earlier, right, I mean over the last decade or so.
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I come to a real clear analysis that, man, this is only happening not because of me, but because of the people that support me, but that's so important.
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And so you're involved in the leadership space at a very high level now and I want to get into those details because I think the National Command and Staff College is the best unknown secret we know of, like everyone knows are the big names.
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I've been to all the big names.
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I got involved in leadership, not because I wanted to.
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I was drug into it because I went to all these big, well-known schools and academies and, heck, I got a doctorate in it.
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And I looked around, I went, this didn't do anything for me, like, if you don't practice it, if you don't use it, if you don't care about people, you don't take care of the wellness of people, if you don't care about others more than you care about yourself, all this education is nothing more than a certificate on the wall, and we have far too many in law enforcement that they check the box, they put it on the resume and they think they're good.
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And so you are still contributing at such a high level.
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So what triggered you to let you go?
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You know what?
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I know I'm retired but I've got to get involved in leadership and law enforcement.
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Is there any experience in your background that sort of triggered that?
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Yes, you know, one thing the military does really well is train and they always are leading that training up to before you go to the next job.
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You're getting trained, you're doing those things.
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When I rotated out of the DEA or out of the Army and went to DEA, I stayed in the National Guard and I spent two years as the officer candidate school lead instructor for the state of Texas for their National Guard program and I learned a lot and you know I sat through a lot of classes as a lieutenant and a captain.
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You know Fort Benning and doing things.
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But I really started to become passionate about how do you make training more enjoyable, how do you get the attention of the audience, how do you find a way?
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And you would have these officer candidate school.
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You know these students who are in there for a year in classrooms and you're trying to find ways to get them to get movie clips or you have a good story and things.
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But I also tried to instill in them that you know this is real.
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The day will come when you're standing in front of somebody and you're in charge and you have to have that.
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You know those things in your kit bag.
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So what we have to do is find practical and training that we can deliver to people but also make them realize that it's something they can put there and fall back on.
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They can gain from those experiences and they can grow because we want people to be stronger.
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And you know you're not going to have all the answers, but what do you have in your kit bag?
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So when I was in DEA, you know law enforcement, you know we had challenges, you know we're always promoting people and then we get in there and you know hopefully they have a good mentor, they have a good leader, they have somebody that they can they learn from, and one of the things that you know really happened and I can walk through this a little bit is Dr Javidi, our chancellor, so Dr Mitch, as a lot of people know him, I was introduced to him when I was about seven years ago.
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I was enrolled in our command and staff leadership program, which is a blended 240 hours online followed by two weeks of residency, and that program was built just for what you said, travis.
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It was built for people who couldn't get into some of the bigger programs.
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They couldn't afford it, but it allowed that leadership development.
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And so we me and another assistant special agent in charge ASAC we went through it and what I found was it started to change the trajectory of the way I was thinking about doing my job, and I started really how do I build?
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teams, how do I invest in the growth of people and how do I make my organization better?
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By making them stronger and developing them.
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Because it's easy to say I want to go to SWAT, I want to go to the FAST program, I want to be in narcotics, I want to do this and do it individually.
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It's a whole different thing when you have to start influencing people and you start building those teams and you become a supervisor and a manager.
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So I would say the last six years or so of my career, what that did was it allowed me to really focus on building and growing the people who work around me and say, how do I try to train them to be me someday?
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How do I get them to take my position?
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And what I was focusing on at the time was you know, law enforcement has the most wonderful people and I've always said you know, it's probably not the hardest job as a leader, as leading people.
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It's hard because of the whole big piece of it.
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And but how do we develop that next generation?
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Because we're all going to time out, there's always going to be and I used to put up a picture when I taught officer candidate school, of all the famous generals, washington and Eisenhower, macarthur and Patton.
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You know all these guys and I put them up and I'd ask people, well, and they would all say, oh, they're a great general, they did this, they did this.
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And I said, well, none of you said was they all left the Army and the Army keeps rolling.
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You know, it's the motto Army keeps rolling along.
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You know it's going to work, you know.
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And so when I met Dr Mitch, Our Hyda State Representative, our director, he would bring Dr Mitch in to speak and present our Magnus' OVA workshops, and we just kept in touch.
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And as I started to get closer to the end of my career, I didn't want to do anything else but try to find ways to get back into this space and help people be not just better leaders, but help them be healthier leaders, because we feel that you can't be a totally capable, strong, as best leader as you can be unless you're healthy, and you know you can't got to have that balance and you've got to have that and what we call being Magnus, which is it's better than great.
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How do you become something better than great?
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And the only way you can do that is to focus on things that are not just your leadership but you as a person.
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How do you become healthy?
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Yeah, I didn't want to insult you by saying it's the best I know in secret, but the truth is I was involved in leadership at a high level and I didn't know about it until after I retired and I found it.
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And when I found it, I looked at it and I went man, this is exactly what my whole goal was.
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Like I've been doing, you know written books and classes, this and that, but the big, biggest issue and you already identified it, justin is people can come to your class, they can get excited about it and the next day they're back to work.
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Where's the follow-up?
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Where's the accountability?
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Right?
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And what you have pioneered here at the command colleges is you have that.
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So explain to people, maybe start with your larger school that you do and then explain how you stay in touch with them and hold them accountable, because that is really has been the missing ingredient.
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You know, the last time you talked about these big training things I was.
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The last time I was at the DEA headquarters, I was at the FBI National Academy.
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I think the statute of limitations run out, so I won't give too many details.
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I don't think about what we did at the DEA headquarters.
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There's a bunch of DEA guys were there so I thought I was okay.
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But coming to find out, you guys are pretty mischievous, but you go to this big fancy 10-week leadership program.
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Then you just come back to work and you're right back in the grind.
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No follow up, no, nothing, it's more, you know.
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I mean, yeah, you have friendships, you have relationships, but there's no one that is making sure this stuff's continuing.
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And so I see a big gap in law enforcement.
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Dr Mick saw this years ago, years before me, and so when I saw what you guys are doing, I thought, man, I got to find out about this.
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And that's why I'm so glad you're here, because I'm not going to reproduce the wheel, I'm not going to duplicate anything.
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I'm going to send people your way, and I've sent plenty of people your way.
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You do classes all over the country one day, two day, but let's talk about your big one, the one you talked about you went to, and then how you continue that training long after with the students.
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Yeah, and so I think it's important, our command and staff leadership program.
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You know, we see that leaders at the mid, first level, mid level all the way up through executive, they need to have an environment where they can actually reflect and talk about what they are, how their personality is and how they are as a leader.
00:14:59.522 --> 00:15:07.490
How they are as a leader and what the course does is it allows the command staff leadership course.
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It allows self-paced 240 hours online where you're interactive with instructors and you're doing.
00:15:12.267 --> 00:15:16.988
You do quite a bit of writing, but that's necessary because it breaks you down, just like you said.
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You know you're going to, you know you have to reflect on some strong leaders you had or some people that weren't, and how you do it.
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But then it starts to get into how do you deal with conflict, how do you create plans, how do you build your team?
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And it talks about how an organization, how you can be, think your organization is the greatest thing since last bread.
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But you just become complacent because you're used to being you know half what you could be, just because people say, oh, it just becomes normal.
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You have to get out of your comfort zone.
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So, taking that and then bringing people together for two weeks from different agencies, different ideas, where they actually work together and they develop a do a capstone exercise.
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That program gives six hours of graduate level credit.
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But what's beyond that?
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And we have learning management systems that are built, that we give an emerging leaders course that is built to stack in there in that and then beyond.
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And then what we do on the backside is we take and we do our Magnuson leadership workshops, two-day workshops.
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We teach every officer as a leader so we can come in, we can do help with the culture of the agency.
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We want to be able to bring that into the agency.
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We want to give those leaders and those executives in those agencies every opportunity and ultimately we would love for somebody to be a legacy where they start with us, all their people going through emerging leaders, they go through command and staff leadership with their upper and then they take the culture class.
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They do every officer's leader.
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They take West Point leadership online.
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We have that online and then we will actually, at the end of it all, if somebody wants to, we'll actually let them put on.
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We have, you know, magnus works out which somebody can come in and they can carry that with them every day.
00:17:03.024 --> 00:17:05.093
And we always say how do we put Dr Mitch in a box?
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Well, we do it with Magnus.
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We have that in his book that he and Brian Ellis you know, brian, they wrote the Eleven Rings.
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You know that's his theory of Magnus Ovea and so those 11 rings.
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You have that and so every day you're able to take that with you.
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But we believe that leadership development is never ending and we think that how do we stay in touch?
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And we listen.
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But the other thing, and one of the reasons I really am so fortunate, is we listen to the industry.
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If the industry comes to us and says, hey, I'm thinking about this or that, if a police department, sheriff's office, then we'll build something.
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If it's one-off, we'll find a way to do that because different people have different challenges and they're all looking for something.
00:17:48.429 --> 00:17:52.198
Well, if you told me, tell me the biggest issue in law enforcement?
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What's the biggest problem?
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How do you overcome it?
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You've solved it and here's what it is.
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The higher you go up in the rank I've experienced this the more isolated you are, the better you think you are than you really are, the more people are patting you on the back telling you how great you are right, and so you end up if you're not careful.
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You're a major or police chief or assistant chief and man.
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All you hear is great things and nobody wants to tell you the negative.
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You know I couch this.
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In politics, there's a couple of great stories.
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Hillary Clinton was told in 2015 that her polling head of polling said hey, people in the West don't like you.
00:18:26.459 --> 00:18:32.082
She didn't have to pay for polling to find that out, but she was told that she fired the guy the very next day.
00:18:32.082 --> 00:18:34.123
You think anybody ever told her the truth again.
00:18:34.123 --> 00:18:36.222
And, by the way, you Trumpsters out there same thing.
00:18:36.222 --> 00:18:45.951
He was very notorious for if you told him something he didn't like, he would come down on you.
00:18:45.951 --> 00:18:46.233
And so we get.
00:18:46.233 --> 00:18:46.654
If we're not careful.
00:18:46.674 --> 00:18:49.445
In leadership, especially at the high level, you surround yourself with the people that you only want to hear from them, right?
00:18:49.445 --> 00:18:52.232
So as a commander I used to take people out to lunch.
00:18:52.232 --> 00:18:53.055
You know.
00:18:53.055 --> 00:18:54.205
That would just be honest with me.
00:18:54.205 --> 00:18:55.490
You know away from everybody's.
00:18:55.490 --> 00:18:57.075
Tell me, did this work, does this not work?
00:18:57.075 --> 00:19:00.692
Because if I just listened to the masses, I'm the greatest thing since sliced bread.
00:19:00.692 --> 00:19:11.646
It's very easy to fall into that comfortable trap, justin, and what you have done here is especially with MagnusWorks is listen, I'll just, I'll break off and I'll tell you this.
00:19:11.646 --> 00:19:14.213
I just talked to a new chief a few weeks ago.
00:19:14.213 --> 00:19:17.468
They'll call me and they'll say give me some advice, what would you do?
00:19:17.468 --> 00:19:20.412
I'm flattered they'll call me, but I'm not actually the expert at that.
00:19:20.412 --> 00:19:26.141
But I'd say easy man, easy Call command college up, get everybody trained.
00:19:26.141 --> 00:19:27.691
Here's why you train everybody, justin.
00:19:27.744 --> 00:19:32.395
I do not believe in training just the rank, because everyone's a leader.
00:19:32.395 --> 00:19:33.258
You already said that.
00:19:33.258 --> 00:19:39.414
But if you train, in fact in my leadership classes I sometimes have to force him to put line personnel in the class.
00:19:39.414 --> 00:19:41.112
Oh, we're going to put the lieutenants and up in.
00:19:41.112 --> 00:19:47.268
No, you're not, or I'm not coming.
00:19:47.268 --> 00:19:47.710
Everyone needs to go.
00:19:47.710 --> 00:19:49.696
So everyone knows how to hold everybody accountable, because it's just the rank goes.
00:19:49.696 --> 00:19:54.613
The lower rank doesn't know whether they're doing it right or they're doing it wrong, and so I'd put everybody through your training.
00:19:54.613 --> 00:20:08.277
I'd get everybody Magnus Works app, because the Magnus Works app they can give leadership feedback about their agency anonymously and, as a leader, I'm going to know the truth of what's actually going on.
00:20:09.444 --> 00:20:15.397
Not many leaders have the courage to do that, because we want to be told great things.
00:20:15.397 --> 00:20:25.848
But if you truly want to lead great, you truly want to leave a legacy, you better break out of that comfortable mode and you have given a tool, justin, for every agency to do that.
00:20:25.848 --> 00:20:27.472
I'm going to make no bones about it.
00:20:27.472 --> 00:20:29.846
I do leadership, I write books, I talk about it.
00:20:29.846 --> 00:20:33.594
This, what you're doing, is the best thing out there.
00:20:33.594 --> 00:20:35.699
Today, no one's come close.
00:20:35.699 --> 00:20:38.028
I had a pipe dream to do something similar.
00:20:38.028 --> 00:20:44.170
I'm now all on board because that's a powerful tool I can only imagine at my agency.
00:20:44.211 --> 00:20:48.213
If we had that 20 years ago, the agency would not resemble what it looks like today.
00:20:48.213 --> 00:20:52.295
When you talk about greatness, you listen.
00:20:52.295 --> 00:20:54.671
Dr Mitch is, I mean.
00:20:54.671 --> 00:20:57.805
To me, it's an icon of what in his brain he came up with, right?
00:20:57.805 --> 00:20:59.551
He's body cameras 30 years ago.
00:20:59.551 --> 00:21:05.008
Half people think Mitch is crazy, right, but trust me, the future is what you're doing, justin.
00:21:05.008 --> 00:21:06.171
You're in the forefront of that.
00:21:06.171 --> 00:21:07.894
Talk to us about the app.
00:21:07.894 --> 00:21:09.748
You go to the training, you go to the stuff.
00:21:09.748 --> 00:21:11.211
Everybody is on the same page.
00:21:11.211 --> 00:21:14.326
What power does the app give those officers?
00:21:14.326 --> 00:21:15.772
That's been through that training at that point?
00:21:16.655 --> 00:21:26.880
Well, you know it's powerful, even if they haven't been through the training, because it is something that allows someone to self-improve, self-reflect.
00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:31.535
It gives you a way to communicate within your agency.
00:21:31.535 --> 00:21:37.387
I mean, just think about that, travis, you went back and you're talking about that.
00:21:37.387 --> 00:21:50.582
For a commander to be able to put out a video or a training coordinator to put out a training, just the ability for it to interface with a learning management system and we have that learning on the app.
00:21:50.582 --> 00:21:55.415
You can actually go in, push a button takes you right to that.
00:21:55.415 --> 00:21:56.904
You can integrate your own training into that app.
00:21:56.904 --> 00:22:05.530
And so what Magnusworks does is it's going to help you with the wellness side of people, which is showing that you're invested in your people.
00:22:05.530 --> 00:22:07.602
You're going to allow that anonymous feedback.
00:22:07.602 --> 00:22:10.750
So you're getting that pulse, that barometer of your agency.
00:22:11.432 --> 00:22:14.577
But the use and the imagination is only.
00:22:14.577 --> 00:22:19.653
You know your ability to use it is only limited by what you can imagine you can do.
00:22:19.653 --> 00:22:28.688
We see people that are integrating it into their training, basic training, right away.
00:22:28.688 --> 00:22:29.511
They're getting their people on board.
00:22:29.511 --> 00:22:37.546
We say this is important for your administrative staff just as much as it is for your officers, because everybody in your organization is just as important and, like you said, that communication with everybody is so important.
00:22:37.546 --> 00:22:43.338
The other thing that really is something that I think you hit on is the future.
00:22:43.338 --> 00:22:52.672
You know, if you went back and just to the body-worn cameras that we talked about, you know policing has moved at light speeds in this country and we have the best policing in the world.
00:22:52.672 --> 00:23:03.978
If you really think about how it's grown and how technology has been integrated, it's funny that everybody in America right now has a phone with an Apple, some kind of an app.
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