Join The Tribe of Courageous Leaders
March 26, 2024

Policing Under Pressure: Fostering Wellness with The Shield Within Podcast

Policing Under Pressure: Fostering Wellness with The Shield Within Podcast
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Courageous Leadership
Policing Under Pressure: Fostering Wellness with The Shield Within Podcast
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When the weight of the badge becomes a heavy burden, where do our law enforcement officers turn for support? Join us alongside Mark The Cop and Dr. David, esteemed voices from The Shield Within podcast, as we traverse the emotional and psychological landscape that officers navigate daily. Together, we delve into the harrowing personal stories of those behind the badge, dissect the profound urgency for mental health awareness in policing, and champion the transformative power of courageous leadership.

Navigating the intricacies of law enforcement, we reveal the stark contrast between leadership and management within the ranks. Through personal anecdotes and professional insights, the hosts of The Shield Within Podcast join me in a critical conversation that scrutinizes the status quo of accountability in policing. We address the dire consequences of neglectful management, challenge the misplaced focus often seen in the aftermath of high-stress incidents, and reinforce the indispensable value of nurturing the well-being of our officers. Our discourse culminates in an exploration of how robust leadership directly influences the retention and recruitment of the force, shedding light on the inspiring success stories of departments that have dared to innovate.

As the episode unfolds, we confront the harsh realities and potential solutions to the pressing challenges of police recruitment. Highlighting stories of pride and integrity, we dissect the disconnect between flashy recruitment tactics and the true essence of what attracts individuals to the badge. Moreover, we discuss the pivotal role of supervisory responsibility, emphasizing how leadership can either cultivate or corrode departmental culture. This candid conversation punctuates the critical need for an evolution in policing—a call to action for law enforcement leaders to reignite the pride and preserve the quality of this noble profession.

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Chapters

00:02 - Courageous Leadership Podcast Introduction

11:06 - Leadership vs. Management in Policing

18:42 - Police Leadership and Accountability in Law

31:12 - Rating Leadership in Law Enforcement

38:11 - Mission-Focused Policing and Community Trust

50:00 - Leadership Evaluations and Humility in Policing

55:11 - Recruiting Challenges and Solutions

01:00:50 - Challenges in Law Enforcement Recruitment

01:13:12 - Supervisory Responsibility and Leadership Insights

01:23:52 - Wrapping It Up

Transcript
WEBVTT

00:00:02.044 --> 00:00:10.446
Welcome to Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates, where leaders find the insights, advice and encouragement they need to lead courageously.

00:00:12.880 --> 00:00:17.812
Welcome to the courageous leadership podcast and I am so glad to join us today.

00:00:17.812 --> 00:00:19.705
We've got something new for you.

00:00:19.705 --> 00:00:20.509
I really love it.

00:00:20.509 --> 00:00:23.710
We have the hosts from the Shield Within Podcast with us.

00:00:23.710 --> 00:00:25.739
It's going to be kind of a dual podcast.

00:00:25.739 --> 00:00:27.365
We're going to do this together.

00:00:27.365 --> 00:00:28.189
It's going to be fun.

00:00:28.189 --> 00:00:32.106
So first I'm just going to have you, gentlemen, introduce yourself and tell us about your podcast.

00:00:33.329 --> 00:00:34.470
Age before beauty, Dr.

00:00:34.470 --> 00:00:34.790
David.

00:00:34.790 --> 00:00:41.773
Oh wow, okay, start off with an instant judgment All right.

00:00:41.773 --> 00:00:42.823
What we are, cops after all.

00:00:45.880 --> 00:00:46.622
We don't pull punches.

00:00:46.622 --> 00:00:49.665
My name is Dr David.

00:00:49.665 --> 00:00:50.764
That's my microphone name.

00:00:50.764 --> 00:00:56.631
I'm a retired licensed professional clinical counselor in the state of Ohio.

00:00:56.631 --> 00:00:59.506
I retired in 2015.

00:01:00.320 --> 00:01:09.412
Mark had been my client while I was in private practice and after I retired and moved to Florida, he and I decided we needed to spend more time together.

00:01:10.120 --> 00:01:18.606
So we got on the phone and we talked and I got to see him a couple of times during the time I was down there and my marriage fell apart.

00:01:18.606 --> 00:01:26.308
I came up here three years ago and I was here about a month and Mark called me on the phone and said hey want to do a podcast.

00:01:26.308 --> 00:01:29.587
And I thought, hell, yes, that sounds great.

00:01:29.587 --> 00:01:39.472
So we started spit balling back and forth and the next thing you knew, we had an idea and a name and we started from there.

00:01:39.472 --> 00:01:41.766
We had I wrote an intro and an outro.

00:01:41.766 --> 00:01:53.332
Mark and I got together for the first seven episodes just he and I and then slowly we have added members to the team so that we have six people on the team right now.

00:01:53.332 --> 00:02:06.069
Mark and I remain kind of like the foundation of the podcast, but others have joined us over the course of the last couple of years and tonight it's just the three of us, mark and me and you.

00:02:06.150 --> 00:02:07.233
We'll just have a good time.

00:02:07.233 --> 00:02:12.542
And now I know who to blame, because Mark's so messed up and also it makes you.

00:02:12.542 --> 00:02:16.086
You're not charged us by the hour here while we're having this conversation, we're all good.

00:02:16.127 --> 00:02:17.889
Huh, we're good man, yeah.

00:02:18.450 --> 00:02:19.192
What about you, Mark?

00:02:19.192 --> 00:02:20.514
Obviously we have known you for years.

00:02:20.514 --> 00:02:21.594
Tell us a little bit about yourself.

00:02:22.341 --> 00:02:31.230
Well, travis, I, uh, yeah, we have known one of the three years and I was just talking with David here before we turned to microphones on how long that I've I've been a fan boy of yours.

00:02:31.230 --> 00:02:34.930
Um I I've been a police officer for 30 years.

00:02:34.930 --> 00:02:56.248
I recently well recently retired in 2021 after 30 years and retired as a police sergeant Um found myself, I don't know, in the grips of PTSD, and that's when I first became David's client and uh, just navigating through all that, uh went through a horrific event there at the end of my career.

00:02:56.248 --> 00:02:57.611
Uh, had it.

00:02:57.611 --> 00:03:03.742
First of all, we had a traumatic event, and my traumatic event I damn near got my whole crew killed.

00:03:03.742 --> 00:03:11.605
So that's uh was the latest or the last, probably major event with me that uh really tipped a tip to scales.

00:03:11.719 --> 00:03:20.435
And in 2020, uh, I went through an investigation and during that, shortly after that, came out.

00:03:20.435 --> 00:03:28.471
That's when David and I got together and I say, hey, let's do a podcast, let's, let's be able to inform people that number one mental health isn't bad.

00:03:28.471 --> 00:03:29.524
That's not a bad word.

00:03:29.524 --> 00:03:31.806
Let's try and get rid of the stigma.

00:03:31.806 --> 00:03:34.605
He and I really had a lot of fun during our sessions.

00:03:34.605 --> 00:03:43.950
And how do we get more cops involved to be able to be comfortable with going to counseling.

00:03:43.950 --> 00:03:45.774
And you know cause of my agency.

00:03:45.900 --> 00:03:54.210
You know you're weak, you know you're fucked up and you know, they would look for ways to get rid of you if, if you went to counseling, which I thought was just terrible.

00:03:54.210 --> 00:04:10.643
So, having gone through that myself and and talking with other people, uh, around, cause I'm, I'm a pretty good network not as good as yours, travis, but uh, I think I got a pretty good network, you know and some people talking about hey, pull you off the side and say, yeah, man, I'm having problems too, you know, but don't tell anybody.

00:04:10.643 --> 00:04:22.980
Um, so we, we decided to have the podcast and the biggest thing, the hardest thing about the show was when we're going to call it, which was, you know, we don't know, we.

00:04:22.980 --> 00:04:26.151
And first we started off with ah, you kind of battered around some ideas.

00:04:26.151 --> 00:04:27.665
Like I was called the recovery room.

00:04:27.665 --> 00:04:31.160
Yeah, google that one, you'll get like a thousand hits.

00:04:31.160 --> 00:04:42.887
So, um, david came up with the name and, um, he was just messing around with it one day and it was like you know, I feel like I need a shield and come up with my shield within to help me get through this.

00:04:42.887 --> 00:04:44.365
So, boom, he ran up by me.

00:04:44.365 --> 00:04:46.146
I'm like, oh yeah, that's it, bro.

00:04:46.146 --> 00:04:48.286
And the intro of our show.

00:04:48.286 --> 00:04:53.507
If you listen in, um, it's him and I talking with music in the background, and that's also David's work as well.

00:04:53.507 --> 00:05:06.240
So, the intro and the outro, uh, as David's, where he's very high functioning, very high thinking, unlike me, um, he's very smart, I'm just a dumb sergeant that uh got in a bad way, you know.

00:05:06.240 --> 00:05:08.288
So, uh, I think that's it.

00:05:09.062 --> 00:05:09.966
Well, it's a great show.

00:05:09.966 --> 00:05:14.048
Uh, you've got some great folks on there that I think.

00:05:14.048 --> 00:05:17.947
What I'm impressed by with the most, uh, dr David Mark, is how real it is.

00:05:17.947 --> 00:05:22.759
Right, we, we were joking before the show that I have 28 John Maxwell books.

00:05:22.759 --> 00:05:23.663
I read one of them.

00:05:23.663 --> 00:05:31.360
So I'm good, I love John Maxwell, but there's just so much of everything in this information age, right, I mean it's.

00:05:31.521 --> 00:05:46.384
We live in this weird time where we have all of this information and you name it in the topic, right, and obviously I'm a leadership guy, risk management guy, you guys are, you know, wellness and mental health, all this stuff but there's so much information, it all sort of.

00:05:46.384 --> 00:05:47.286
You know?

00:05:47.286 --> 00:05:48.408
This is what I tell people.

00:05:48.408 --> 00:05:53.550
If you want to be a police chief in a medium sized big city, I can tell you how to do it.

00:05:54.160 --> 00:06:02.702
There's a narrative to follow, there's a road to follow, there's a path to follow and for the most part, you sell yourself, you can't be you, you can't be honest, you can't be authentic.

00:06:02.702 --> 00:06:07.809
It's the same way in the training environment, podcast environment, media environment.

00:06:07.809 --> 00:06:09.012
There's a path.

00:06:09.012 --> 00:06:17.591
If you want to be successful, monetary wise, you have to follow that path, and so we have a lot of inauthentic things out there and it's doing a lot of damage.

00:06:17.591 --> 00:06:24.346
And I made a choice a long time ago that if I was, if I had this one life to live and it's one career to have, I was going to be real.

00:06:24.346 --> 00:06:29.209
And that's got my butt in a sling more times than I can think of, but I'm very proud of that.

00:06:29.209 --> 00:06:33.257
You know I said I told somebody a few years ago that the day I retired.

00:06:33.257 --> 00:06:37.228
I guess I'm going to tell you a little bit about myself, because your listeners are going to be listening to this as well.

00:06:37.309 --> 00:06:37.509
Oh yes.

00:06:38.699 --> 00:06:39.081
And they may.

00:06:39.081 --> 00:06:46.870
They may not know who I am, but I just retired for 30 years with Tulsa police department and had a, you know, an awesome career.

00:06:46.870 --> 00:06:50.622
I got to do a lot of cool things and I didn't didn't really know.

00:06:50.622 --> 00:07:05.867
When I got in law enforcement my dad was a police captain enforcement Tharken Saltham and if you'd asked him my goals I've seen about this today as I was coming on the show if you'd asked him my goals in the academy and I was 21 years old in the academy, fred, I shot a college kind of my first real job.

00:07:05.867 --> 00:07:08.988
I'd had odd jobs here and there, my first legitimate real job.

00:07:08.988 --> 00:07:13.430
If you asked me on that first day in the academy it would have been my same go throughout my career.

00:07:13.430 --> 00:07:14.581
I said you know, I want to.

00:07:14.581 --> 00:07:15.706
I want to be the best cop I can be.

00:07:15.706 --> 00:07:23.769
Uh, I'd like to be a street sergeant for the most of my career, cause for some reason that just seemed cool and and, mark, you know that's the best job on the planet.

00:07:23.790 --> 00:07:25.742
Best job I can tell you that.

00:07:25.742 --> 00:07:31.925
And then, right before I retire, I like to make captain because my dad's a captain and I think that I'd call it good.

00:07:31.925 --> 00:07:38.793
I had no thoughts about podcasting or training or consulting or all these sort of different areas I'm doing.

00:07:38.793 --> 00:07:41.629
People will walk up to me in a class and go, oh, I want to do what you do.

00:07:41.629 --> 00:07:52.788
I'm like, well, I got a story to tell you because if you want to do it really bad, the odds are you probably shouldn't do it, right, uh, cause I just fell into it and uh, and so it's.

00:07:52.788 --> 00:07:53.791
It's pretty strange.

00:07:53.791 --> 00:08:01.091
And but what I saw in my career is I saw this narrative, I saw this path and I saw people being very successful to this day.

00:08:01.091 --> 00:08:04.048
Uh, and there's even a higher level of success.

00:08:04.048 --> 00:08:05.526
I call them those DOJ chiefs.

00:08:05.526 --> 00:08:06.262
Right, you can really.

00:08:06.262 --> 00:08:16.028
You can really be successful in the retirement if you become the DOJ chief and you have consultant gigs for the rest of your life and to do next to nothing, to run police departments and communities along the way.

00:08:16.028 --> 00:08:17.987
And it just made me sick.

00:08:17.987 --> 00:08:20.187
I can't really take credit for it.

00:08:20.187 --> 00:08:21.485
It's just what was inside of me.

00:08:21.485 --> 00:08:24.288
You know, maybe my, my family, maybe it's my faith.

00:08:24.288 --> 00:08:26.466
I just had this earning to go.

00:08:26.466 --> 00:08:30.185
I want to do what's right and I want to stand by what's right, and that goes with officers.

00:08:30.185 --> 00:08:39.932
So when I saw these officers throughout my career getting messed with, screwed with, and as I went up in the ranks, and just to tell you I what I bought my goal was was not what happened.

00:08:39.932 --> 00:08:41.746
I'd probably be a little happier today if it was.

00:08:41.860 --> 00:08:47.631
I ended up making first line supervisor three years into my career, at the Rapport age of 25 years old.

00:08:47.631 --> 00:08:49.229
Wow, at the time I was 28,.

00:08:49.229 --> 00:08:50.000
I was a street sergeant.

00:08:50.000 --> 00:08:51.927
At the time I was 31, 32,.

00:08:51.927 --> 00:08:57.570
I was a captain, I was a middle management and I was a commander, uh, in 2003, 2004,.

00:08:57.570 --> 00:08:59.573
Uh, major, which is right below the chief rank.

00:08:59.573 --> 00:09:02.710
So you know I I didn't really there was not a secret to that.

00:09:02.710 --> 00:09:06.191
I just worked hard and tried to do the best I could do and things just fell that way.

00:09:06.191 --> 00:09:08.869
I would have been perfectly happy with the street sergeant my entire career.

00:09:08.869 --> 00:09:09.783
That's just what happened.

00:09:10.279 --> 00:09:31.068
But I never really internally changed throughout that and that didn't mow well as I went through the management ranks, because that did not meet oftentimes what was expected of me, and so when I questioned things and when I wonder why we were do certain things, it was interesting, right, it was really interesting, and I was just naive to think that everybody felt like me.

00:09:31.068 --> 00:09:34.366
They wanted to do what's right, they wanted to tell the truth.

00:09:34.366 --> 00:09:39.264
They wanted, you know, they wanted to stop people attacking us when they were lying and we would tell the.

00:09:39.264 --> 00:09:45.192
It just wasn't the case and so I sort of had this burden, uh, dr David and Mark, for the rest of my life.

00:09:45.379 --> 00:09:47.989
My purpose is just to still stand up for this profession.

00:09:47.989 --> 00:09:57.630
I think one of the saddest things is when people spend 15, 20, 30, 35 years in this profession and they retire, they go, I'm out, I'm out, I'm done and you're not done.

00:09:57.630 --> 00:10:01.730
You're, god built you to serve right and you need to serve.

00:10:01.730 --> 00:10:05.225
It may be a different capacity, just like you, gentlemen, are still serving.

00:10:05.225 --> 00:10:07.240
That really is what I felt my purpose is.

00:10:07.240 --> 00:10:14.629
I've sort of fallen in line with, uh, really pushing what I would call courageous leadership, which is a weird term, because I see the book behind you.

00:10:14.629 --> 00:10:16.366
Thank you for putting up there today for me, mark.

00:10:16.580 --> 00:10:25.606
Oh brother, it's always up there but that really that you know that's just a fancy term for great leadership, right, and it seems to be so rare.

00:10:25.606 --> 00:10:29.947
It's like a unicorn, and the reason it's so rare is what I just described.

00:10:29.947 --> 00:10:45.722
That doesn't bode well for longterm success when it comes to finances or careers and this and that because it's if you're weak and if you go with the narrative, there's lots of avenues and places for you, but I do not believe in the long run those people will be happy.

00:10:45.722 --> 00:10:47.948
I don't believe in the long run those people will make any changes.

00:10:47.948 --> 00:10:50.125
I don't believe in the long run, those people will leave a legacy.

00:10:50.125 --> 00:11:02.765
And so my go, uh, as long as a good Lord gives me time as to believe in Mark in society the best I can, and so when I'm long gone, that is still there and it's been an incredible journey.

00:11:03.140 --> 00:11:04.706
I couldn't ask for anything more.

00:11:04.706 --> 00:11:05.725
I'm very, very blessed.

00:11:05.725 --> 00:11:10.600
I meet people like you every single day and there's a lot of us out there.

00:11:10.600 --> 00:11:12.386
But they've been stymied right.

00:11:12.386 --> 00:11:19.905
They've been, they've been beat over the head so much that they have marks on their head right, and so many people give up.

00:11:19.905 --> 00:11:21.663
They just give up because they figure out.

00:11:21.663 --> 00:11:23.269
Why do I want to fight this fight.

00:11:23.269 --> 00:11:25.706
Well, that's because you fight to fight, because it's worth it.

00:11:25.706 --> 00:11:28.427
The men and women that were at this badge are worth it.

00:11:28.427 --> 00:11:35.269
The communities they serve are worth it, and I'm just so thankful for what both of you do and all the folks that you have on your show.

00:11:35.269 --> 00:11:38.288
And that's kind of my short summary story.

00:11:39.422 --> 00:11:47.909
Well, travis, I I want to go ahead and tell our listeners and for everyone else that's listening to your show welcome and thanks for listening to us.

00:11:47.909 --> 00:11:54.648
I've known you for a long time and you have left a big mark already and I feel that you've already have left the legacy.

00:11:54.648 --> 00:11:57.105
Your book is one of the books.

00:11:57.105 --> 00:12:10.948
Whenever I hear someone that's going to get into management, they I want to be a sergeant and I will buy your book on Amazon and the one next to it there, maxwell's, and hand them two books to those people.

00:12:10.948 --> 00:12:17.302
And the reason why is because Maxwell kind of gives you the tools to put in line for whatever the law.

00:12:17.302 --> 00:12:20.269
That Maxwell's 21 is what I'm talking about, and you're right.

00:12:20.269 --> 00:12:24.321
All the rest of them basically are just, you know, different derivatives of that original book.

00:12:24.360 --> 00:12:26.167
Not that everything doesn't isn't good.

00:12:26.167 --> 00:12:36.255
Your book the courageous police leader keeps it real and it, it, it puts a perspective out there that take care of your people.

00:12:36.255 --> 00:12:49.991
Um, and it's so frustrating that and we've had several discussions on this show as well as others have been guests on that somewhere along the line we stopped taking care of our people.

00:12:49.991 --> 00:12:51.134
I think it's Ferguson.

00:12:51.134 --> 00:12:57.634
I think the lie of Ferguson is where management, not leaders management.

00:12:57.634 --> 00:13:10.390
In this idea of we need to hold people accountable because they weren't accountable in Ferguson, which is we're rated explicit HS, I'm going to say horse on my show.

00:13:10.390 --> 00:13:11.120
Uh yeah.

00:13:11.140 --> 00:13:11.422
I can.

00:13:11.542 --> 00:13:14.408
I can swear like a sailor and then, for your audience, I'm not going to do that.

00:13:14.649 --> 00:13:15.451
We're not on the radio.

00:13:16.360 --> 00:13:26.726
So, no, well, fucking horse shit, throw it out there, and I do I do this LEO round round table podcast and it's, it's streamed on it's on radio and radio.

00:13:27.129 --> 00:13:30.745
And they sent me this email and it said there's here's a seven words you can't say on radio.

00:13:30.745 --> 00:13:36.500
And I read the seven words and I got about six words into it and I go well, I don't say any of those words I'm not even worried about.

00:13:36.500 --> 00:13:51.625
Well, I didn't read the seventh word mark, seventh word of shit, and I do use that word time to time and I said it one day and the producer came unglued man, because apparently the SCC takes that stuff very seriously.

00:13:51.705 --> 00:13:53.761
Right, so, yeah, lesson learned.

00:13:53.761 --> 00:13:59.131
Lesson is this read the entire sentence, Just like attorneys right.

00:13:59.352 --> 00:13:59.633
Yeah.

00:14:00.179 --> 00:14:03.510
And when you said that, it reminded me of that bit that George Carlin used to do yes, absolutely.

00:14:05.100 --> 00:14:06.144
The comedian George Carlin.

00:14:06.144 --> 00:14:16.028
But anyway, um, in this whole strife of we're going to hold people accountable, it's like I'm all about accountability, okay, but when did you quit taking care of people?

00:14:16.028 --> 00:14:19.125
When did you start taking this officer that?

00:14:19.125 --> 00:14:20.870
He's on midnight's?

00:14:20.870 --> 00:14:22.941
He's endured a lot of stress.

00:14:22.941 --> 00:14:24.485
He saw a bunch of crap.

00:14:24.485 --> 00:14:26.784
His wagon is full.

00:14:26.784 --> 00:14:29.368
He's not going to therapy.

00:14:29.368 --> 00:14:33.510
You know he's existing on caffeine, cigarettes, red bowls, whatever.

00:14:33.510 --> 00:14:36.068
Uh, you know he's sleeping four or five hours a day.

00:14:36.220 --> 00:14:37.866
Now he's starting to make bad life decisions.

00:14:37.866 --> 00:14:40.400
His family's starting to come apart, you know.

00:14:40.400 --> 00:14:46.466
So instead of management saying, hey, bro, come here, man, you know we need to talk, you need to start getting your life together.

00:14:46.466 --> 00:14:48.546
You know I'm noticing some changes in you.

00:14:48.546 --> 00:14:49.442
You're calling off sick.

00:14:49.442 --> 00:14:51.528
You know just this, isn't you.

00:14:51.528 --> 00:15:07.423
So instead of cultivating that guy that which most departments if you're there 10 years, what do you think it'd be fair to say, travis, we have at least a quarter million dollars worth of training in someone If you've been there 10 years, probably more easy I'm just being conservative of the quarter million.

00:15:07.443 --> 00:15:08.346
Yeah, half million.

00:15:08.365 --> 00:15:09.347
Yeah.

00:15:09.889 --> 00:15:10.350
Exactly.

00:15:10.870 --> 00:15:12.113
So let's say a half million.

00:15:12.113 --> 00:15:14.748
We have a half million dollars invested in this officer.

00:15:14.748 --> 00:15:16.184
So what's this manager?

00:15:16.184 --> 00:15:16.726
Not leader?

00:15:16.726 --> 00:15:18.307
What's the manager solution?

00:15:18.307 --> 00:15:19.265
That's firing.

00:15:19.265 --> 00:15:23.068
Let's step him up the discipline because we're going to hold people accountable.

00:15:23.068 --> 00:15:25.922
Let's just step him up the disciplinary scale and get rid of him.

00:15:25.922 --> 00:15:37.349
In the meantime, what's our number one killer of police officers is we're killing ourselves, and that's at an alarming rate.

00:15:37.349 --> 00:15:47.201
Not only are we having line of duty deaths, and Now to compound that and add in the fact that officers are going home and whacking themselves.

00:15:47.221 --> 00:15:51.332
And back in my day, early days, and probably early in your career, oh, what happened to bill?

00:15:51.332 --> 00:15:54.000
He was cleaning his gun and shot himself.

00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:55.445
We all know that was a suicide.

00:15:55.445 --> 00:15:58.331
I mean, doc, dr David got an aha moment.

00:15:58.331 --> 00:16:00.577
He's like, oh yeah, I used to hear those all the time.

00:16:01.206 --> 00:16:03.652
Well, back in them days they took care of people.

00:16:03.652 --> 00:16:08.791
They didn't want that stigma and Having that attitude.

00:16:08.791 --> 00:16:13.291
The worst thing in the world, because we're not taking care of people, is Number one.

00:16:13.291 --> 00:16:14.298
You're in a bad spot.

00:16:14.298 --> 00:16:15.085
Maybe you find yourself.

00:16:15.085 --> 00:16:16.067
You know your.

00:16:16.067 --> 00:16:17.389
Your life has come apart.

00:16:17.389 --> 00:16:18.251
Your family's come apart.

00:16:18.592 --> 00:16:20.518
Now your management's coming at you from the back.

00:16:20.518 --> 00:16:23.077
You know we can deal with the guy on the street.

00:16:23.077 --> 00:16:24.424
I know the terms there.

00:16:24.424 --> 00:16:50.884
I can't deal with the guy that's attacking me from the rear and their only thing is is that we need to hold people accountable because of a lie we were told of a national event, and there's several of them and I don't want to get real super political, but I think that we had, and we've had, a vacuum of leaders and there's a difference between leadership and management is Definite, and I can remember standing up in our command staff meetings and saying this is bullshit.

00:16:50.884 --> 00:16:55.304
You know, we need to be taking care of our people, the road dogs out there that are showing up every day.

00:16:55.304 --> 00:16:57.374
They're getting used up right now.

00:16:57.374 --> 00:17:00.004
You know overtime shift after overtime shift.

00:17:00.004 --> 00:17:09.739
You know well they're just not taking good care on themselves and we need to start having, as departments and as leaders, more empathy for our people that are out there protecting our citizens every day.

00:17:12.306 --> 00:17:15.474
I'm waiting on you, dr David, but you want to point over to me.

00:17:15.997 --> 00:17:21.974
Well, I watched a lot of your presentations over the weekend the last few days.

00:17:21.974 --> 00:17:37.358
So far it hasn't harmed me one bit, and you had a goose story that you told to a presentation and I love the goose story.

00:17:38.165 --> 00:17:38.647
And it was.

00:17:38.647 --> 00:17:40.672
It was a goose, or is it geese?

00:17:40.672 --> 00:17:43.278
Always getting trouble by the Autobahn Society right?

00:17:44.308 --> 00:17:45.924
Well, I'm never quite sure.

00:17:45.924 --> 00:18:01.416
It sounded like it's probably plural, so okay, when I when I looked it up online it was called the goose story, okay, but I loved the principle there of you have a flock of geese flying migration.

00:18:01.416 --> 00:18:24.657
You have one goose that's Breaking the wind, leading everybody else, and then it's fatiguing, it's exhausting, and somehow the birds know it's time for somebody else to do that now, and so the top guy, the front guy, falls back, somebody else comes up front and it goes like that for miles and miles and miles and miles and they know the direction, they know the purpose, they know the go.

00:18:24.698 --> 00:18:25.704
They're all in it together.

00:18:25.704 --> 00:18:31.192
They always get to the same place, unless dr David, their police birds.

00:18:31.192 --> 00:18:40.394
Then they all backstab each other and change directions and they fire the head geese and they bring in the new geese and they get rid of that program because that geese like that program.

00:18:40.394 --> 00:18:42.288
And it goes on and on right.

00:18:42.964 --> 00:18:56.938
Exactly, the number one thing I think I've been educated about in the last three years Is how police, law enforcement people fuck each other and they do it in so many different ways.

00:18:56.938 --> 00:18:59.567
It's like I Don't know.

00:18:59.567 --> 00:19:15.554
It must take a lot of creativity, you know, because I the, the whole culture seems to have an element and everywhere I go, every way that talks to me about it, everywhere this has whole pattern historically of law enforcement people.

00:19:15.554 --> 00:19:16.907
Fucking each other.

00:19:17.528 --> 00:19:19.032
It's whether they're not in a fun way.

00:19:19.032 --> 00:19:20.237
You're not talking about the fun way.

00:19:20.925 --> 00:19:22.471
Well, not in my a desk.

00:19:22.471 --> 00:19:30.516
The definition I to kind of get the impression that there are people having some level of enjoyment doing that let's turn other pod, that's right.

00:19:33.444 --> 00:19:40.316
You know I, you know it's interesting, and mark you brought up Ferguson and I actually obviously you know my book.

00:19:40.316 --> 00:19:54.935
I talk about that because, listen, I think the problem First off the problem is, I think, which what both of you guys have just said is is why it's so valuable, why you do your podcast, because so few people want to actually talk about problems.

00:19:54.935 --> 00:20:09.490
But you're never gonna solve anything if you don't talk about problems, and I will open up my leadership seminars, sometimes two or three hours, just talking about the problems, because it sets them up for us, talking about the last half a day, the solutions, and that's not for everybody, you know.

00:20:09.490 --> 00:20:11.676
There's, like I said, there's a narrative.

00:20:11.676 --> 00:20:15.325
I went in there and everybody feel good and happy, fuzzy, you're the greatest thing ever.

00:20:15.325 --> 00:20:20.005
I'd be extremely popular out there on the circuit, but that's not doing us any good, right.

00:20:20.005 --> 00:20:27.825
I mean, there's all kinds of leadership seminars and conferences, quadruple trilogies I'm hanging this on my wall and I ask people because I've been to a lot of that stuff.

00:20:27.825 --> 00:20:37.396
I've been the FBI in a, in a per for all the East Coast chiefs go to die and ICP, and this acronym, and that acronym of my question is well, where is it gotten us?

00:20:37.396 --> 00:20:39.750
Where are we as a profession?

00:20:39.750 --> 00:20:41.473
Is anyone evaluating this?

00:20:41.493 --> 00:20:48.494
And when you look at Ferguson and I do agree that was sort of the tip of the spear of what continued on but here's why I think it happened.

00:20:48.494 --> 00:21:01.529
You know, when I Hit my first squad through right by the age of 22, my sergeant at the time seemed like an old guy but he was probably in his mid to late 40s Vietnam vet.

00:21:01.529 --> 00:21:03.803
You know we're talking early 90s here.

00:21:03.803 --> 00:21:13.164
Vietnam that was running the squad hardcore dude would take care of you if you, if you meant well, he would hurt you if you didn't, if you had intention to do harm.

00:21:13.164 --> 00:21:18.865
And I thought to myself and I'm sort of embarrassed by it at the time I thought I can't believe this.

00:21:18.865 --> 00:21:27.009
I went to college, I got this great job and now I'm working for my dad again because my dad was a Vietnam that had that same ideology and I got out of the house out of way for my dad.

00:21:27.009 --> 00:21:34.178
Now I'm working for my dad every day but I miss him because they're not that they're not around very often.

00:21:34.198 --> 00:21:40.294
And what happened with Ferguson is is that attitude of when we're right, I will defend you to the end of the earth.

00:21:40.294 --> 00:21:47.355
If you're wrong, you're wrong, I will might hold you accountable, but if you're right, I don't care what anybody says, because people don't understand.

00:21:47.355 --> 00:21:51.494
These weak, cowardly leaders want to make people think that this stuff is new.

00:21:51.494 --> 00:21:55.789
Hey, when I came on, mark, when you came on, the media lied about us.

00:21:55.789 --> 00:21:57.314
The activists talk crazy.

00:21:57.314 --> 00:21:59.659
They go to city council meetings and talk nonsense.

00:21:59.659 --> 00:22:04.875
Now, granted, social media is a force multiplier, but these entities were there.

00:22:04.875 --> 00:22:06.238
Yes, no different.

00:22:06.238 --> 00:22:08.244
You just changed the name and they're still there today.

00:22:08.806 --> 00:22:10.853
The difference was we let him get away with it.

00:22:10.853 --> 00:22:25.065
Right, if we did not let them get away with it, I can remember, specifically up to the mid 90s and late 90s, if somebody lying about us and our chief going on TV, basically pointing a finger at them, calling them a liar, yeah, right, and that tender to keep other people from lying.

00:22:25.065 --> 00:22:25.653
It's weird.

00:22:25.653 --> 00:22:28.210
Weird how that happens, but what happened in Ferguson is is.

00:22:28.210 --> 00:22:34.346
We had a lot of head knowledge on leadership, but when that chaos came, we could not Adapt.

00:22:34.346 --> 00:22:52.396
We cannot own those principles that we saw for so many years in this profession, and we just caved right and chiefs figured out that, hey, if I just give in and cave, I may be, I'll keep my job and we can go on down the road and I can go to this next conference and my pension it's padded because they felt, because they made a choice.

00:22:52.396 --> 00:22:56.576
I don't care about the men and women behind the badge, I care more about myself.

00:22:56.675 --> 00:23:05.553
Right, and as I said, as I say all the time, man, if you want to be a leader, it's gonna be bloody, it's gonna be gory, you're gonna hurt, you're in the arena, you're gonna get bruised.

00:23:05.553 --> 00:23:09.920
Yes, it's not some happy, go lucky position you have.

00:23:09.920 --> 00:23:11.366
You're not, you know and so.

00:23:11.366 --> 00:23:14.525
But we have a lot of people in those positions that that's not why they're there.

00:23:14.525 --> 00:23:17.204
They're not there to take care of other people that are there to take care of themselves.

00:23:17.204 --> 00:23:20.414
And let me tell you something I talked a lot about courageous leadership.

00:23:20.414 --> 00:23:29.680
There's a lot of great courageous leaders that are unemployed because they did not give up, they did not give in and they got 10 xed out of that room and God bless them.

00:23:29.680 --> 00:23:32.807
If we had more of them, we would not be in this position.

00:23:32.867 --> 00:23:34.913
And leadership, everything really bad.

00:23:34.913 --> 00:23:36.837
That it's happiness, profession is because of leadership.

00:23:36.837 --> 00:23:40.265
It's not because of the city council, it's not because of politicians, it's not because of the media.

00:23:40.265 --> 00:23:43.635
It's not because of no, no, we did it to ourselves.

00:23:43.635 --> 00:23:50.223
Yes, we left them lie about Ferguson, a legal, justified shooting that Obama's Department of Justice cleared the officer.

00:23:50.223 --> 00:23:55.664
Right, we left him lie about Baltimore we left him lie about Breonna Taylor We've left them lie.

00:23:55.865 --> 00:24:02.311
We're so racist, mark and Dr David, they keep stop lying about it, right, right, and we're not a perfect profession.

00:24:02.311 --> 00:24:03.635
There's no perfect profession.

00:24:03.635 --> 00:24:05.843
But I would put us up against Chick-fil-A.

00:24:05.843 --> 00:24:11.085
My goodness, who else will agree to wear a body camera their entire workday?

00:24:11.085 --> 00:24:16.067
They try to do it to school teachers during COVID and they flipped out, right, yes, that's right, we'll do it.

00:24:16.067 --> 00:24:23.430
And so my department alone records about 6,000 hours a day, so you can track that around the United States to Millions and millions of hours a day.

00:24:23.430 --> 00:24:24.473
And I'd say what do they got?

00:24:24.473 --> 00:24:25.728
What do they got?

00:24:25.728 --> 00:24:26.912
But nobody's saying that.

00:24:26.912 --> 00:24:31.065
They're waiting for the next viral moment for some chief to just throw people down.

00:24:31.065 --> 00:24:40.659
And we're so bad in our profession, guys, we'll let somebody, we'll let some viral moment happen 2,000 miles away and all the chiefs in the country come out and talk about it.

00:24:41.128 --> 00:24:42.744
Right, well, and they don't know anything about it.

00:24:42.765 --> 00:24:43.866
Right, and they're.

00:24:43.866 --> 00:24:45.865
They're shameless about it.

00:24:45.865 --> 00:24:53.230
Now you don't see that in any other profession, like if some school teacher you know Sexually assaults a kid which I don't know.

00:24:53.230 --> 00:24:55.616
I see on the news every single day in this country.

00:24:55.616 --> 00:25:00.623
You don't see all the principles around the country going that's never gonna happen.

00:25:00.623 --> 00:25:03.453
At our school We've implemented this rules and that rule no.

00:25:03.453 --> 00:25:06.144
I think most society understands that's an anomaly.

00:25:06.144 --> 00:25:19.792
That's not happening in all the schools, right, but our own leaders have made the public think that one police incident out of 800,000 cops Applies to all of us, not all the leaders.

00:25:19.792 --> 00:25:21.096
But shame on them.

00:25:21.096 --> 00:25:40.989
They have done this to us and I and we can either set back and let it keep happening we will continue to see the degradation, the defamation, the defunding of law enforcement and it's not gonna get any better or good men and women can stand up against it and I thank God for both of you men and so many others that are doing that, because there's a lot of us out there.

00:25:41.028 --> 00:25:41.471
Not all that.

00:25:41.530 --> 00:25:56.883
Not everyone has a platform there's a lot of us out there that cares about our communities, that cares about this profession, that is sick and tired of this and I think one of the reasons that Some of the personal attacks come for all of a sudden here is because they know the scams up.

00:25:56.883 --> 00:26:02.065
Oh yeah, they know, we know, right, we, as we are outing them publicly now.

00:26:02.065 --> 00:26:07.163
And I I stopped being nice a few years ago because I tried to be nice.

00:26:07.163 --> 00:26:07.684
That didn't work.

00:26:07.684 --> 00:26:09.913
So now I'm kind of to shame me at this point.

00:26:09.913 --> 00:26:14.736
You know I got booted off the stage last week from the Department of Justice lawyer.

00:26:14.736 --> 00:26:16.606
What oh what?

00:26:16.606 --> 00:26:17.409
You're upset.

00:26:17.409 --> 00:26:25.125
You're upset that I said that 14 of the top 20 cities, or the most violent cities in America, are ran by the Department of Justice.

00:26:25.125 --> 00:26:27.592
Not me saying it, those are the facts.

00:26:27.592 --> 00:26:34.431
According to the FBI, the top 20 most violent cities, 14 of those are ran by the Department of Justice consent decrees.

00:26:34.431 --> 00:26:36.074
And you mad about that.

00:26:36.074 --> 00:26:37.978
I don't know why you're mad.

00:26:37.978 --> 00:26:39.567
It's true, right?

00:26:40.087 --> 00:26:40.749
It's true.

00:26:40.749 --> 00:26:44.617
Now, travis, I'm still trying to wrap my mind around that you got thrown off the stage.

00:26:49.086 --> 00:26:50.692
They didn't try to physically throw me off stage.

00:26:50.692 --> 00:26:56.392
We'll come back to that a little later.

00:26:56.986 --> 00:26:58.851
All right, but the scam is up.

00:26:58.851 --> 00:27:00.074
The scam is up.

00:27:00.074 --> 00:27:01.657
We know what they're doing.

00:27:01.657 --> 00:27:05.374
You can't keep pointing at the politicians and activists saying it's their fault.

00:27:05.374 --> 00:27:09.532
Same with all the other issues we're dealing with, from retention to recruiting, to morale.

00:27:09.532 --> 00:27:10.895
Oh no, it's your fault.

00:27:10.895 --> 00:27:12.171
Yeah, it's your fault.

00:27:12.171 --> 00:27:15.005
And because it's your fault is actually a good thing.

00:27:15.005 --> 00:27:16.932
We can control that, right.

00:27:16.932 --> 00:27:20.847
If it was some third-party entity that we didn't control, I would have no hope.

00:27:20.847 --> 00:27:31.912
But the truth is I have hope because there's a lots of good men and women Maybe not in chief positions yet that are in our agencies, that are willing to make a change, willing to sacrifice and willing to lead.

00:27:32.513 --> 00:27:33.195
Amen to that.

00:27:33.195 --> 00:27:39.256
To dovetail off of that, there is a great amount of good leadership that's there.

00:27:39.256 --> 00:27:47.690
Like in my agency, I always prided myself on developing that leader coming up, that first-year officer that shows some potential.

00:27:47.690 --> 00:27:51.342
You know, start taking that person and developing them as leaders.

00:27:51.342 --> 00:27:52.646
You know it.

00:27:52.646 --> 00:27:59.150
My former agency you know it was the contract says that the senior guys always going to be the officer in charge and when the sergeant's gone.

00:27:59.150 --> 00:28:02.122
And I said that's bullshit because my senior guy is incompetent.

00:28:02.122 --> 00:28:05.894
You know my youngest officer was the leader of the shift.

00:28:05.894 --> 00:28:09.497
You know I didn't have a hundred officers to manage, you know.

00:28:09.497 --> 00:28:09.959
So we were.

00:28:09.959 --> 00:28:11.464
It was four people on my shift.

00:28:11.464 --> 00:28:12.589
That was a 20-man department.

00:28:12.589 --> 00:28:29.530
But what I'm saying is is that the youngest, newest officer there had natural leadership ability about them and and to develop that and it took me hell in high water to get a memorandum of understanding past through our union To be a little while it was a while.

00:28:29.590 --> 00:28:33.499
Our culture and David talked about it Our culture is so unhealthy.

00:28:33.499 --> 00:28:38.556
Yes, yes, they don't want you mentoring those young officers.

00:28:38.556 --> 00:28:40.259
They haven't earned that.

00:28:40.625 --> 00:28:43.034
They haven't been on three years or five years.

00:28:43.034 --> 00:28:45.862
You know they haven't deserved that man.

00:28:45.862 --> 00:28:48.769
Let me tell you something you know, and get back to that goose story.

00:28:48.769 --> 00:28:53.605
If we empowered the people in our agencies with the talents they had and said, get after, it changed the world.

00:28:53.605 --> 00:28:55.877
We would radically change our communities.

00:28:55.877 --> 00:28:56.904
But we don't do that.

00:28:56.904 --> 00:29:03.519
You may have some rookie officer that knows something, has great ideas, great concepts, great creativity.

00:29:03.519 --> 00:29:07.023
We mute them, yes, until they earned it.

00:29:07.023 --> 00:29:17.667
Maybe they have to take their shirt to the drop to get some stripes sewn on their arm, and now they can have a little bit of a say so, but not too much say so, mark, because they're not a captain or lieutenant Yet, you know.

00:29:17.667 --> 00:29:18.269
And then they get.

00:29:18.269 --> 00:29:19.734
That was not too much say so.

00:29:19.734 --> 00:29:24.576
Rank has got nothing to do with changing our departments for the better, exactly nothing.

00:29:25.246 --> 00:29:27.009
We have some of the best men and women.

00:29:27.009 --> 00:29:31.479
This country has to offer awareness, uniform and rank has nothing to do with it.

00:29:31.479 --> 00:29:34.013
If we empower them, it changes the world.

00:29:34.013 --> 00:29:59.895
But because of everything, we're talking about these weak cowards, because if you, if you're weak man, you put yourself around other weak people, you're in your, you're intimidated by people that may have more knowledge or whatever it is, and they knew them because they have the control of I, they have the control of power, they have the control of discipline and I think, as I said earlier, we've exposed it because a lot of officers know that, right, yes, and they're looking for that.

00:29:59.895 --> 00:30:09.353
And let me ask you guys both a question why don't we expose every single Police recruit in the academy to high-level leadership skills?

00:30:09.353 --> 00:30:13.347
I'm just gonna ask you the question and I'll give you my answer, dr David.

00:30:14.685 --> 00:30:17.675
They become a threat if educated and trained.

00:30:20.208 --> 00:30:20.931
I can't say it better.

00:30:22.185 --> 00:30:22.909
Yeah, that's it.

00:30:22.909 --> 00:30:25.659
I mean, that is that's why they call him dr David, right?

00:30:25.659 --> 00:30:27.444
I couldn't say any clearer myself.

00:30:27.444 --> 00:30:31.085
Because let me tell you something, in the military it's complete opposite.

00:30:31.085 --> 00:30:43.790
You're exposed to how every leadership skills day, one, day one and I talked to a lot of our past military folks that become police officers and their minds explode Because it's such a different dichotomy what they're used to.

00:30:43.790 --> 00:30:45.835
They can't understand what they're seeing.

00:30:45.835 --> 00:30:48.619
So people need to understand, especially citizens.

00:30:49.705 --> 00:30:56.644
The law enforcement community, law enforcement profession, is completely whacked when it comes to leadership because they had this hierarchy system.

00:30:56.644 --> 00:30:58.598
Oh, you went and you passed a test.

00:30:58.598 --> 00:31:06.150
Oh, yeah, you danced in front of an assessment center and now, all of a sudden, we bless you with a rank that makes you not any Smarter.

00:31:06.150 --> 00:31:10.208
In fact, you lose brain cells every day, so you're actually dumber tomorrow than you were yesterday, right?

00:31:10.208 --> 00:31:12.025
So, no, you're not any smarter, you're not any better.

00:31:12.025 --> 00:31:21.950
Leadership's leadership and man, if we would give this in the Academy and continue that through their career, the, what we could accomplish is unheard of.

00:31:21.950 --> 00:31:33.760
But that's going to take swallowing your ego, swallowing your pride and admitting that, man, I'm a chief, from whatever rank I am, but there are people around me that are just as capable, less empower them.

00:31:33.760 --> 00:31:43.346
And let me tell you guys, there's, you know, when you do this job, 30 years there's not a whole lot of clear things you can remember, right, because it all kind of jumbles together, right, let me?

00:31:43.488 --> 00:31:50.037
Let me tell you something the moments in my career and listen, I, I very much, is like most people.

00:31:50.037 --> 00:31:54.634
You know I, many of the years I worked my agency, did not use my talents.

00:31:54.634 --> 00:32:08.237
They did not empower me, they didn't put me in positions to use my talents, but there were times they did and my Drive and my motivation during those time periods was incredible because I Recognized man, they trust me to do this job.

00:32:08.237 --> 00:32:10.045
They've given me the tools to do this job.

00:32:10.045 --> 00:32:18.943
I'm gonna do the best job I can for, not for me, but for the agency, and I tried to go throughout my career doing that for other people and I saw how it worked.

00:32:18.943 --> 00:32:26.394
I saw how great it was and, by the way, as a leader, as an administrator, as a supervisor, it made my job easier.

00:32:26.394 --> 00:32:28.085
Why do I want to be doing everything?

00:32:28.085 --> 00:32:38.269
Let's find somebody really good at what they do and say man, go change the world, let's get after it, and I would watch them do it, and that's some of the best memories I have yeah, no, absolutely.

00:32:38.529 --> 00:32:42.357
And if you have a good team that surrounds you, you hit the nail on the head there.

00:32:42.357 --> 00:32:47.617
Yeah, you don't have to work as hard because you have subject matter experts right there under your nose.

00:32:47.617 --> 00:32:49.127
Let them do what they're doing.

00:32:49.127 --> 00:32:59.681
We all succeed when we succeed as a team and as the leader of whatever group, you are Developing those people underneath you and giving them them skills and allowing them to use them.

00:32:59.681 --> 00:33:00.605
That's the biggest thing.

00:33:00.605 --> 00:33:03.332
Yeah, it's the same way with my department, travis.

00:33:03.332 --> 00:33:07.732
Did you know that I was never allowed to be a field training officer, Although I asked for it several times?

00:33:08.015 --> 00:33:09.622
Yeah we're not gonna have you do that.

00:33:09.622 --> 00:33:10.144
Why not?

00:33:10.144 --> 00:33:13.193
When I made the rank of sergeant?

00:33:13.193 --> 00:33:16.123
You know who the training sergeant was, not me.

00:33:16.123 --> 00:33:19.391
I've only been training at the state level since 2004.

00:33:19.391 --> 00:33:26.729
That's you know when, when you and your sergeant came over and visited us and drove with this and I was trying to remember what year that was you came to Ohio.

00:33:27.381 --> 00:33:28.243
Oh, man I was.

00:33:28.243 --> 00:33:29.888
I'll tell you I was with Jack Hoener.

00:33:30.259 --> 00:33:31.625
You were having a yeah.

00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:37.132
And we, we, uh, Jeff Eggleston offered us a week there at the facility.

00:33:37.132 --> 00:33:40.897
Yes, sir, the only thing I remember about that place was it was London right.

00:33:40.897 --> 00:33:41.219
Yes, sir.

00:33:41.219 --> 00:33:47.268
The only thing I remember is that seedy bar that Jack would take Right the crowd.

00:33:47.268 --> 00:33:48.417
That thing spooked me.

00:33:48.417 --> 00:33:51.450
I don't think still there, but it's scary to me to death.

00:33:51.450 --> 00:33:57.321
I'm a married guy trying to live by my Lord and he'd take me in that little seedy bar and I was like man.

00:33:57.321 --> 00:33:58.445
I feel the heave-a-jeebies.

00:34:00.520 --> 00:34:03.044
Funny story about that Funny story about your visit.

00:34:03.044 --> 00:34:07.147
There is our driver, our best driver, right.

00:34:07.147 --> 00:34:12.248
Jack ran him off the track, jack, you know he's incredible man.

00:34:13.181 --> 00:34:14.306
And listen, same thing.

00:34:14.306 --> 00:34:19.110
I ran that unit but I fully would say, hey, jack and Will.

00:34:19.110 --> 00:34:21.628
I don't think you guys met Will, but they were two of my best drivers.

00:34:21.628 --> 00:34:23.206
I said get after a gentleman.

00:34:23.206 --> 00:34:26.048
I wasn't, I wasn't, I wasn't affected by that.

00:34:26.048 --> 00:34:33.240
I took, I took pride in the fact that those guys were so good because they came, I brought them in and I trained them, I learned.

00:34:33.581 --> 00:34:36.690
I learned so much from YouTube that week when you were there.

00:34:36.690 --> 00:34:40.170
You know the techniques of how to handle the car and things like that.

00:34:40.170 --> 00:34:42.067
So can I jump back here real quick.

00:34:42.067 --> 00:34:47.972
We were talking about these leaders and is there a gauge out there?

00:34:47.972 --> 00:34:59.027
So, most city, I was a city councilman for two and a half terms and you know, coming from the game, I kind of had an inside track and the police chief at the little village where I was at.

00:34:59.027 --> 00:35:01.568
You know, my thing is is that, hey, what do you need?

00:35:01.568 --> 00:35:03.626
I'm going to get you all the money you need to run your department.

00:35:03.626 --> 00:35:12.179
Is there a gauge out there or someplace where some of these city officials could go to to score or gauge?

00:35:12.179 --> 00:35:32.510
They have a really awful chief but to them, like my dad always told me, mark, you're always good as what your boss thinks you are, and if the city manager thinks you're walking on water and you're just an absolute moron, you know, is there a gauge out there from any of these chiefs associations that that can rate a police chief?

00:35:32.860 --> 00:35:33.342
Hmm.

00:35:35.108 --> 00:35:36.302
Good Talking my language.

00:35:36.362 --> 00:35:39.563
Now the answer is no.

00:35:39.563 --> 00:35:42.128
Clearly, I think you understand why the answer is no.

00:35:42.128 --> 00:35:44.106
They're the best that ever been in their own head.

00:35:44.106 --> 00:35:45.664
They don't want anything threatened.

00:35:45.664 --> 00:35:54.730
But here's what needs to happen, and I'm actually in the process of trying to figure this out, and if any of your listeners have any ideas, I would love to hear from them.

00:35:54.730 --> 00:35:55.922
Travis Yates dot org.

00:35:55.922 --> 00:35:57.045
You'll find all my stuff there.

00:35:58.699 --> 00:36:01.289
We are lying to our recruits.

00:36:01.289 --> 00:36:06.992
We're spending millions of dollars on marketing materials and fancy websites and fancy videos.

00:36:06.992 --> 00:36:14.039
We're making these departments look like the greatest thing ever when we get them in the door and they get there for six months or a year and they go.

00:36:14.039 --> 00:36:16.809
Ooh, this was not what I thought.

00:36:16.809 --> 00:36:25.422
So what we are in desperate need of and the private business world has been doing it for years is we need to rate our agencies, which would be a rating on leadership.

00:36:25.422 --> 00:36:36.590
So I want to rate leadership in an agency and I'm really close to pulling something off with it and it was going to, it's going to, it's going to be something the effective, because before I do that, it has to be validated.

00:36:36.860 --> 00:36:48.521
Dr David would tell you all this stuff, you want to be able to support it with actual evidence, research driven, and so it's going to be categorized out, but it's going to come from the, from the employees.

00:36:48.521 --> 00:36:53.715
You can ask 10 employees in the agency and you'll figure out the end of those 10 people, whether it's a good agency or not, right?

00:36:53.715 --> 00:36:57.550
Oh yeah, not just opinion, but tell me exact examples of what's going on.

00:36:57.550 --> 00:37:12.548
And so I know they're not going to be necessary rating the chief, but I'm of the opinion that the, the entire chain of command, is a reflection of the chief, because what we see in a lot of agencies is a lot of your supervisors to your middle management, they're all wanting to go to the next rank, oftentimes.

00:37:12.548 --> 00:37:42.932
Well, they will emulate who's at the top, right, so you may have a bad chief, but what people will notice is is they'll start seeing people around them changing to conform to that bad chief, and that's a that, once that starts occurring, it's very difficult to get that culture back, and so I would love to come up with, you know, a rating system for the leadership of these agencies, which I do I do think will reflect our chiefs and other folks, where our officers will know what type of agency that is.

00:37:44.005 --> 00:37:54.159
And you know that is not been done, and it's pretty amazing to think it hasn't been done with all of the millions of dollars being poured into these organizations, but I think that's going to be extremely important to do.

00:37:54.159 --> 00:38:05.954
I think unions need to grab on to that Right, like you know, from a health perspective, where your agency is on leadership, because if you don't know, you don't know what to work on, and I know that she's made the chiefs Well.

00:38:05.954 --> 00:38:11.148
I would personally love it, I would love to be rated every year Exactly, and so I can know what to work on, what to improve on.

00:38:11.148 --> 00:38:13.668
Most people aren't, aren't that clearly?

00:38:13.668 --> 00:38:19.012
And but here's how unhealthy that the culture is.

00:38:19.012 --> 00:38:27.007
Dr David and Mark, do you know of any police chief anywhere that's been fired for crime going up?

00:38:28.903 --> 00:38:29.608
That's funny.

00:38:29.608 --> 00:38:31.418
Let's go.

00:38:31.418 --> 00:38:32.222
Let's go.

00:38:32.222 --> 00:38:33.880
Look at the city of Memphis that really.

00:38:33.942 --> 00:38:41.130
That really turns into a very sick environment, because our sole mission is in our name.

00:38:41.130 --> 00:38:43.981
Yes, all enforcement, bam.

00:38:43.981 --> 00:38:45.827
That is the mission of our profession.

00:38:45.827 --> 00:38:48.625
Ok, and our sole mission.

00:38:48.625 --> 00:38:56.150
Not only are we not evaluating agencies based on leadership no one seems to care about crime, but that's the mission.

00:38:56.150 --> 00:38:57.684
It's like saying.

00:38:57.684 --> 00:39:01.623
It's like saying McDonald's doesn't care about their cheeseburgers no, they do.

00:39:01.782 --> 00:39:04.552
That's why they're handed surveys to all the customers.

00:39:04.552 --> 00:39:10.367
They want to make sure they're meeting their mission Right Exactly, and the fact that I have asked.

00:39:10.367 --> 00:39:11.911
I have put this on social media.

00:39:11.911 --> 00:39:18.512
I'm trying to find one chief in America that was actually fired for high crime.

00:39:18.512 --> 00:39:22.248
Maybe it's happened, but up until today I haven't found it.

00:39:22.248 --> 00:39:29.130
I'll be fired for a bunch of other things that has nothing to do with the mission Right, and so that is not good for our communities.

00:39:29.130 --> 00:39:35.568
Your community deserves for your police department to be held accountable for their only mission, which is crime.

00:39:36.481 --> 00:39:47.672
It seems to me that these, the cowards that get up in that corner office, they're afraid to go out and enforce the law and cops just want to do cops.

00:39:47.672 --> 00:39:50.148
Yet that's why I wanted to become a police officer.

00:39:50.148 --> 00:39:51.686
I wanted to do some good.

00:39:51.686 --> 00:39:54.590
I wanted my people to feel safe in their beds at night.

00:39:54.590 --> 00:40:05.965
And you know, and like in our community, you know they were very appreciative the fact that you know, my motto was as a working B cop was take care of your good people, f the bad ones.

00:40:05.965 --> 00:40:11.572
And I had these undesirables that moved down to our city because, hey, it's really nice, right?

00:40:11.572 --> 00:40:15.599
Yeah, so you live peacefully or I will keep arresting you until you move away.

00:40:15.599 --> 00:40:20.079
And one guy one evening he was crying as I had him in the back of my car.

00:40:20.079 --> 00:40:22.260
I've never been arrested so much in my life.

00:40:22.260 --> 00:40:25.219
Well, dude, you know that's what we don't, that's what we do here.

00:40:25.219 --> 00:40:28.059
We take care of our good people, you're being you, do your job.

00:40:28.079 --> 00:40:32.599
Yeah, that my job is to convince you to move somewhere where you don't have this problem and they did.

00:40:32.599 --> 00:40:36.742
But that's such a valid point, you know.

00:40:36.742 --> 00:40:40.494
If your crime rate is high, why are you still getting this big salary?

00:40:40.494 --> 00:40:42.039
Get it in my doubt.

00:40:43.085 --> 00:40:45.239
There's a lot of crazy stuff going on in the profession.

00:40:45.239 --> 00:40:47.432
We can fix it tomorrow, mark and Dr David.

00:40:47.432 --> 00:40:48.496
And here's how you fix it.

00:40:48.496 --> 00:40:53.773
You tell every police chief in America if the crime goes up two years in a row, you're gone and you know what they'll do.

00:40:53.773 --> 00:40:57.166
It's crazy because we know how to how to.

00:40:57.166 --> 00:40:59.472
We know how to curb crime.

00:40:59.472 --> 00:41:02.846
We did it all through the 90s yes, lowest in our history.

00:41:02.846 --> 00:41:05.280
We know the tools it takes to curb crime.

00:41:05.280 --> 00:41:06.686
You know what those chiefs have to do.

00:41:06.686 --> 00:41:12.519
They say Mark, go, go, go, curb crime, go do it, they would do it if their job was on the line.

00:41:12.701 --> 00:41:15.675
But the truth is your job is actually on the line politically.

00:41:15.675 --> 00:41:16.699
If they do go curb crime.

00:41:16.699 --> 00:41:18.327
Listen, here's a quick answer for that.

00:41:18.327 --> 00:41:26.269
If in the political world, if they're upset that you're actually enforcing the law, it's easy to tell the politicians hey, you don't like me enforcing the law, get rid of the law.

00:41:26.269 --> 00:41:28.878
You control the law books, you control the ordinances.

00:41:28.878 --> 00:41:31.487
If you don't want me curb and crime, stop and stop.

00:41:31.487 --> 00:41:44.922
And these criminals shoplifters, you know, rape suspects, robbery suspects go crimp, decriminalize the law Because as it stands now, you put the law on the books, but then you're mad at me when I use the law and so.

00:41:45.043 --> 00:41:48.340
But nobody's going to stand up and do that because they believe that's going to hurt their job.

00:41:48.340 --> 00:41:54.666
And let me tell you guys, you can't be a police chief in any major city today by saying your main goal is to curb crime.

00:41:54.666 --> 00:42:00.315
They will not hire you If you don't start bobbing your head and get that old Bill Clinton, look and go.

00:42:00.315 --> 00:42:06.311
My main job, my main job is to gain community trust.

00:42:06.311 --> 00:42:11.539
Gain community trust If you don't say that you will not be hired.

00:42:11.539 --> 00:42:14.353
And, by the way, community trust has nothing to do with our mission.

00:42:14.119 --> 00:42:15.907
Do what I like to community to trust us.

00:42:15.907 --> 00:42:17.144
Does that help our job?

00:42:17.144 --> 00:42:18.947
Of course, but you know how you do that.

00:42:18.947 --> 00:42:20.318
It's not using TikTok.

00:42:20.318 --> 00:42:22.628
It's not doing breakdancing videos.

00:42:22.628 --> 00:42:23.349
You know how you do that.

00:42:23.349 --> 00:42:25.547
Why do you trust a business Mark?

00:42:25.547 --> 00:42:27.358
You look like an Apple guy to me.

00:42:27.358 --> 00:42:30.849
You know you kind of have this weird Southern California vibe going on.

00:42:30.849 --> 00:42:33.027
You tell me why you like Apple.

00:42:33.027 --> 00:42:36.009
You trust them because they do a heck of a job.

00:42:36.009 --> 00:42:37.465
They make a great device.

00:42:37.465 --> 00:42:38.920
They have good customer service.

00:42:38.920 --> 00:42:43.789
When you walk into the store you feel like you're going to start smoking weed, but you like the store anyway, right?

00:42:43.789 --> 00:42:44.945
You're kind of hitting out.

00:42:45.780 --> 00:42:47.126
That's why you trust them.

00:42:47.126 --> 00:42:51.492
You don't trust them because they're saying whatever you want to hear and they're doing TikTok.

00:42:51.492 --> 00:42:54.039
No, you trust them because you're providing a great server.

00:42:54.039 --> 00:42:57.079
So how you build trust is you do a great job.

00:42:57.079 --> 00:43:06.492
By the way, the last I checked, gallup's been doing the trust ratings for the last 50 years in our professions and law enforcement has been in the top four all 50 years.

00:43:06.492 --> 00:43:17.331
Yes, the last time I saw it, we had an 82% trust rating from the American public School teachers, doctors pretty much the only ones have been above us.

00:43:18.119 --> 00:43:23.773
The people that are streaming for community trust politicians are around 9% is where Congress is, and the media is at 11%.

00:43:23.773 --> 00:43:26.427
Yes, so it's the scam.

00:43:26.427 --> 00:43:28.849
And it's a scam because they'll never tell you.

00:43:28.849 --> 00:43:31.000
What level of community trust do we need?

00:43:31.000 --> 00:43:37.887
And, by the way, you can see all of the reforms and all of the changes that are happening across this profession based on that lie.

00:43:37.887 --> 00:43:39.847
We have to do this because of what?

00:43:39.847 --> 00:43:42.967
Not because of our mission, not because of crime control.

00:43:42.967 --> 00:43:47.708
Community trust, it's a metric that you cannot measure.

00:43:47.708 --> 00:43:49.666
It's 82% now.

00:43:49.666 --> 00:43:51.003
What could it be?

00:43:51.003 --> 00:43:55.079
Well, the fact is the data and most of the research will say it's not going to ever get much higher.

00:43:55.079 --> 00:43:59.559
There's about 10% to 15% of the public that will never like us and I had the data to back that up.

00:43:59.559 --> 00:44:00.719
I talked about this in my seminar.

00:44:00.719 --> 00:44:04.139
So quit worrying about the other 10% or 15% or 20%, yeah.

00:44:04.887 --> 00:44:06.019
What are you making decisions?

00:44:06.159 --> 00:44:11.920
What you're doing, by trying to placate to those folks that never trust you, is you're alienating the ones that do trust you.

00:44:11.920 --> 00:44:13.646
So, here's how you build community trust.

00:44:13.646 --> 00:44:22.264
You do your job and you do it well, and people will tend to like that, yes, so we are so far off the reservation, so to speak.

00:44:22.264 --> 00:44:25.400
We're so far away from that I don't even know what to say about it.

00:44:25.400 --> 00:44:29.159
We could talk for hours about that, but it's not hard to get it back, Mark.

00:44:29.159 --> 00:44:32.199
We need to be mission focused in the story.

00:44:34.025 --> 00:44:37.117
And I think that mission is take care of your people, yeah.

00:44:38.451 --> 00:44:38.655
It's funny.

00:44:38.655 --> 00:44:48.438
You say that I wrote an article a few months ago called Do they Care, right, and I want to sort of describe that to our folks and you can read my articles on Substack and I can give you that website.

00:44:48.438 --> 00:44:53.719
But just go to travestiatesorg and you hit Substack and you can plug your email in and get all these articles.

00:44:53.719 --> 00:44:57.192
But here's why I ended up writing the article.

00:44:57.192 --> 00:45:01.559
I started getting this thought in my head how important caring should be.

00:45:01.559 --> 00:45:04.179
So I actually did a dissertation a couple years ago.

00:45:04.179 --> 00:45:07.500
I would not recommend it, as Dr David will tell you, hell no.

00:45:07.500 --> 00:45:09.893
And my dissertation was not on that.

00:45:09.893 --> 00:45:16.760
My dissertation was on how communication affects organizational performance.

00:45:16.760 --> 00:45:18.827
You're going to say that sounds smart.

00:45:18.827 --> 00:45:19.998
No, I was just lazy.

00:45:19.998 --> 00:45:25.324
I knew there was a lot of data already out there and I figured I got to make this thing easier because I'm not that smart, I'm going to get through this thing.

00:45:25.324 --> 00:45:37.880
So what I found out by studying this topic and it had never been studied in law enforcement before, so it was really interesting to see what happened is, yes, obviously communication affects many aspects of it.

00:45:37.880 --> 00:45:39.760
It's what the themes of my dissertation show.

00:45:39.760 --> 00:45:43.844
But when I heard this thing about caring, I did a word search on it because caring I didn't.

00:45:43.844 --> 00:45:47.159
I did a word search on the dissertation 300, 400 pages dissertation.

00:45:47.159 --> 00:45:54.311
I did a word search and caring starts popping up because I did interviews with a lot of officers and the quotes from officers.

00:45:54.311 --> 00:45:56.920
But yes, they were talking about performance.

00:45:56.920 --> 00:46:02.411
They were talking about people not communicating, but in their quotes they kept saying they don't care about me.

00:46:02.411 --> 00:46:05.949
It doesn't sound like they care about me, they don't empower me, they don't care.

00:46:05.949 --> 00:46:08.820
It was all throughout and I had this sort of revelation.

00:46:08.820 --> 00:46:11.068
I'm like that's it, that's it.

00:46:11.068 --> 00:46:22.304
All the leadership gurus, all the people out there that are giving you the fancy memes, if we just go to work tomorrow and go, let's care for people more, it changes everything.

00:46:22.304 --> 00:46:24.045
Yeah, it changes everything.

00:46:24.045 --> 00:46:25.385
It's that simple.

00:46:25.385 --> 00:46:26.302
We how?

00:46:26.302 --> 00:46:30.271
We have messed up the concept of leadership and taking care.

00:46:30.271 --> 00:46:32.869
I don't know how we've done it, but we've had to work really hard.

00:46:32.869 --> 00:46:35.480
Just go care for people.

00:46:35.641 --> 00:46:37.327
I'll tell you one quick story about that.

00:46:37.327 --> 00:46:41.255
I was on the department a couple of years and we had a chief at the time.

00:46:41.255 --> 00:46:42.039
I'll give him credit.

00:46:42.039 --> 00:46:43.585
He's a great chief, ron Palmer.

00:46:43.585 --> 00:46:46.804
He came from Kansas city, young guy when he got here.

00:46:46.804 --> 00:46:48.914
He's like in his early 40s when he came to my department.

00:46:48.914 --> 00:46:54.980
I don't know He'd been there four or five years when I got there, but he would ride every month with an officer, just a random officer.

00:46:54.980 --> 00:46:59.271
He'd show up whatever shift, decked out vest and he'd ride the entire shift.

00:46:59.271 --> 00:47:00.809
I always thought that was cool.

00:47:00.809 --> 00:47:09.909
Yeah, I always thought that was cool until one day I got a call from his administrative assistant that said hey, the chief's going to ride with you this month.

00:47:09.909 --> 00:47:11.385
I'm like what's the odds of that?

00:47:11.579 --> 00:47:14.193
600, some odd officers in patrol is riding with me.

00:47:14.193 --> 00:47:15.699
I was freaked out.

00:47:15.699 --> 00:47:23.380
You know, I'm like a one year officer and I play in the car and I'm all nervous and shows up and, oddly enough, that night it couldn't get a lot of backers.

00:47:23.380 --> 00:47:27.530
I don't know what was going on, but we go.

00:47:27.530 --> 00:47:30.378
We ended up having a great time.

00:47:30.378 --> 00:47:31.119
I kind of relaxed.

00:47:31.119 --> 00:47:32.199
We had a great conversation.

00:47:32.199 --> 00:47:38.588
It was really fascinating for a young officer to be around, someone that had already sort of had that street cred and he was the chief in the major city.

00:47:39.420 --> 00:47:40.284
We get to the end of the night.

00:47:40.284 --> 00:47:41.945
By the way, this is how important carrying is.

00:47:41.945 --> 00:47:43.911
Guys in the audience, it's how important it is.

00:47:43.911 --> 00:47:45.612
I remember this like it was yesterday.

00:47:45.612 --> 00:47:46.440
I wrote it in my book.

00:47:46.440 --> 00:47:47.646
I remember like it was yesterday.

00:47:47.646 --> 00:47:49.519
I get out of my car.

00:47:49.519 --> 00:47:51.596
He gets out of the car, he's walking to his car.

00:47:51.596 --> 00:47:52.440
I'm walking in my car.

00:47:52.440 --> 00:47:54.045
It says after a evening shift.

00:47:54.045 --> 00:47:58.438
So it's like midnight and he's walking away and we're about 20 yards away.

00:47:58.438 --> 00:47:59.503
He says Travis.

00:47:59.503 --> 00:48:01.869
I turn around and I said yes, chief.

00:48:01.869 --> 00:48:08.543
He says man, you're a great cop, I really appreciate you, I mean.

00:48:08.603 --> 00:48:08.965
I'll tell you.

00:48:09.025 --> 00:48:09.867
I'm getting emotional.

00:48:09.867 --> 00:48:12.914
Telling the story from 30 years ago Very cool.

00:48:13.420 --> 00:48:17.239
Those words, those few seconds he took because he meant it.

00:48:17.239 --> 00:48:18.980
You could tell he meant it, it was authentic.

00:48:18.980 --> 00:48:25.985
He didn't have to stop and say that He'd already thanked me in the car, but he stopped me and he said man, you're a great cop, I really appreciate you.

00:48:25.985 --> 00:48:29.048
Those words got me through 30 years.

00:48:29.048 --> 00:48:32.230
There were times when I wanted to stop, times I wanted to quit.

00:48:32.230 --> 00:48:35.840
Those words got me through 30 years.

00:48:35.840 --> 00:48:37.947
That's amazing.

00:48:37.947 --> 00:48:41.409
How are we not doing that for others?

00:48:41.409 --> 00:48:51.367
When I talk about leadership lessons, that right there, surpassed all the seminars, all the training, all the books that I've ever read on leadership.

00:48:51.367 --> 00:48:52.510
That right there.

00:48:52.510 --> 00:48:54.387
It's that simple, guys.

00:48:54.539 --> 00:48:57.445
Yes, exactly as you point out in your presentations.

00:48:57.445 --> 00:49:02.527
It's as simple as the golden rule Treat people the way you would like to be treated.

00:49:02.527 --> 00:49:11.570
It's that simple, and I have a client who taught me the silver rule, which I'd never heard before Don't treat people the way you don't want to be treated.

00:49:11.570 --> 00:49:14.519
And I think, yes, exactly.

00:49:14.619 --> 00:49:15.826
I'm totally stealing that one man.

00:49:15.826 --> 00:49:16.126
I love it.

00:49:17.621 --> 00:49:20.217
So it's that simple, it's that elegant.

00:49:20.217 --> 00:49:23.447
It's that focused and it's also that real.

00:49:23.447 --> 00:49:27.733
When you do that, it becomes powerful instantly.

00:49:28.655 --> 00:49:28.815
Yeah.

00:49:28.815 --> 00:49:31.101
So let me ask you guys so we've.

00:49:31.101 --> 00:49:34.429
I mean, if it's this simple, how do we get it back?

00:49:34.429 --> 00:49:36.201
How do we get back there?

00:49:37.777 --> 00:49:38.619
I'll start with this one.

00:49:38.619 --> 00:49:40.264
Good, you got to be humble.

00:49:40.264 --> 00:49:44.641
How many leaders out there are willing?

00:49:44.641 --> 00:49:49.449
So we have to do these things once, twice a year, which I call it a joke.

00:49:49.449 --> 00:49:51.340
It's called an evaluation.

00:49:51.340 --> 00:49:55.601
Didn't you hate doing evals travels for you people?

00:49:55.601 --> 00:49:57.777
Yeah, cuz they were worthless for the most part, absolutely.

00:49:57.777 --> 00:50:00.603
And so you just always kind of cut and paste, cut and paste.

00:50:00.603 --> 00:50:01.144
And what do you do?

00:50:01.184 --> 00:50:06.702
last year, and yeah or the weather, the period of time is, so you milk it down to you.

00:50:06.702 --> 00:50:11.228
They got a one through five or one through three, or you know whatever some.

00:50:11.795 --> 00:50:14.126
Sometimes if you give a certain number you gotta give documentation.

00:50:14.126 --> 00:50:16.998
So everybody kind of get down the middle, right, we're just giving down the middle school right.

00:50:17.059 --> 00:50:26.300
Right, because if the guys the total f up, you're not gonna score him low, because then you have to show what was your, what was your employee improvement program or why is it an f up and what you do?

00:50:26.300 --> 00:50:26.922
Blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:50:26.922 --> 00:50:28.197
All right.

00:50:28.197 --> 00:50:35.722
So if I had to do these for my people, right, because there was Zero leadership training in my department when I got promoted.

00:50:35.722 --> 00:50:37.065
Here's your keys, here's your stripes.

00:50:37.065 --> 00:50:38.288
Go do search and shit.

00:50:38.288 --> 00:50:39.338
How do I do that?

00:50:39.338 --> 00:50:40.402
Oh, no, figured out.

00:50:40.402 --> 00:50:46.628
So in order for me to gauge, am I serving my people?

00:50:46.628 --> 00:50:48.813
And now I'm not the guy standing there directing.

00:50:48.853 --> 00:50:54.146
My job as A leader was to make my people's job the easiest it could be.

00:50:54.146 --> 00:51:00.221
How can I serve you and make your job easy, make your job fun, make you enthusiastic about coming to work?

00:51:00.221 --> 00:51:02.045
So I didn't have a way to gauge that.

00:51:02.045 --> 00:51:05.146
So I'm thinking why who's who's evaluating me?

00:51:05.146 --> 00:51:10.871
Oh, it's the guy in the corner office that I never see because we work six p to six a.

00:51:10.871 --> 00:51:12.054
He works eight to four.

00:51:12.054 --> 00:51:14.081
So I literally never see the guy.

00:51:14.081 --> 00:51:18.619
And on council nights, when he's supposed to be there at seven, he never came through the department.

00:51:18.619 --> 00:51:21.467
He walked in the front door of the city building and just totally avoided it.

00:51:21.467 --> 00:51:24.282
So my officers never really knew who he was.

00:51:24.282 --> 00:51:26.867
So who should be really evaluating me?

00:51:26.867 --> 00:51:29.719
Your officers, bingo.

00:51:29.719 --> 00:51:31.384
So that's what I did.

00:51:31.784 --> 00:51:36.240
I read recreated, because we were one through five, which I thought was a fucking joke.

00:51:36.240 --> 00:51:46.664
So either am I meeting your needs yes, am I exceeding your needs, hopefully or am I not meeting your needs, and if I'm not, I want to know what I'm doing wrong.

00:51:46.664 --> 00:51:54.927
And I was humble enough to say you know, this is your chance, because the guy up the corner really has no idea what I do here.

00:51:54.927 --> 00:52:04.449
But from you, if you people, who's the face of this department are telling him, hey, you know, sergeant Mark is doing a great job, I want you to hear that.

00:52:04.449 --> 00:52:07.467
Or if I'm f'ing something up, I want to know that too.

00:52:07.467 --> 00:52:12.295
You can't give me a one, which does not mean expectation, because I want details.

00:52:12.295 --> 00:52:13.632
I want to know how I did that.

00:52:13.632 --> 00:52:13.775
Enough.

00:52:13.775 --> 00:52:22.766
I pissed you off on a scene, or I had to get stripe heavy for something, and you're that one time you're mad, I get it Okay, and if you're raw about it, put it in there.

00:52:22.766 --> 00:52:30.882
But I want him to see that and I also wanted that to be included with my yearly Evaluations from him to see what kind of work I did.

00:52:30.942 --> 00:52:33.307
And there's other sergeants on my department, so you know, fuck them way.

00:52:33.307 --> 00:52:33.938
I'm doing that.

00:52:33.938 --> 00:52:34.559
Why?

00:52:34.559 --> 00:52:36.077
How do you?

00:52:36.077 --> 00:53:00.523
And, and, travis, I want to tell you this real quick the best compliment I got was from one of my officers and the poor bastard had to work for me then first six years or seven years of his career and he evolved along and he really grew and, you know, really took on a leadership role and and when I was giving him his evaluation, I Said hey, jimmy, you know, I really wish I had this guy for the past six years.

00:53:00.523 --> 00:53:08.509
And he says you know what, sergeant, I really wish I had this Sergeant for the past six years, because at first I thought these evils you gave us was bullshit.

00:53:08.509 --> 00:53:18.206
But you actually read them and when you're doing something we don't like, you changed, he said you really evolved, so that was the greatest compliment I ever had as a boss.

00:53:18.876 --> 00:53:26.159
But I think, in order to be humble and in is to get that bottom-up view how are you being viewed from the people that you're managing?

00:53:26.159 --> 00:53:31.280
And I think that's where leaders need to look at their opinion and take that to heart.

00:53:33.516 --> 00:53:54.474
Yeah, you know, I Obviously it's an individual agency basis, but it we're almost at the point to where, unless the guy or gal at the top Brings that humility, endorses that humility, demands that humility, yes, no one is going to even consider that for the most part, right, I mean, you're gonna have those.

00:53:54.474 --> 00:53:54.996
I was.

00:53:54.996 --> 00:53:58.003
I don't want to come across in this, in the show, that everybody's bad.

00:53:58.003 --> 00:53:58.887
Of course they aren't.

00:53:59.096 --> 00:54:00.340
No we have some right now.

00:54:00.340 --> 00:54:03.110
The bad ones are out weighing the good ones right there being.

00:54:03.110 --> 00:54:04.474
The good ones are being muzzled.

00:54:04.474 --> 00:54:06.322
I mean, just look at the data.

00:54:06.322 --> 00:54:07.527
I'm a big data nerd, right.

00:54:07.527 --> 00:54:08.451
Look at the data.

00:54:08.451 --> 00:54:09.514
What's our recruiting like?

00:54:09.514 --> 00:54:10.661
What's our retention like?

00:54:10.661 --> 00:54:15.514
I'm in rooms all the time, guys, and For the last couple years I've asked this question.

00:54:15.876 --> 00:54:28.561
So probably a few thousand folks who here know somebody that left their department before they wanted to I'm not talking about you but who here know somebody that wanted to stay 20 years but they left early I want to say 30 years, they left early.

00:54:28.561 --> 00:54:31.762
Every hand for two years has gone up.

00:54:31.762 --> 00:54:37.784
Oh yeah, that is a recipe for complete bankruptcy in this profession, yes.

00:54:37.784 --> 00:54:51.385
And then when you look how we're trying to recruit which is a whole, nother crazy topic how you think some recruiting videos when convinced somebody to become a police officer you know, Washington DC Metro Just won the recruiting video the year about police one.

00:54:51.385 --> 00:54:52.750
We're at the lowest staffing in history.

00:54:52.750 --> 00:54:55.621
So congratulations on your video you start looking at that.

00:54:55.621 --> 00:55:00.963
You think not only are these folks not humble, they're dumb at the same time.

00:55:00.963 --> 00:55:06.347
You know, because if I have a recruiting problem, I want to find out how to recruit.

00:55:06.347 --> 00:55:07.918
I don't need a thing I don't want.

00:55:07.918 --> 00:55:11.697
I just don't want something that looks great, right website, video, this and that I mean.

00:55:11.717 --> 00:55:14.835
There's some companies bringing down millions of dollars because they build websites.

00:55:14.835 --> 00:55:17.824
They charge nineteen, ninety five prices to these departments and they pay them.

00:55:17.824 --> 00:55:22.894
I know this because I'm involved in recruiting company and I helped them with some contracts and dude.

00:55:22.894 --> 00:55:27.534
It's crazy what I'm seeing these agencies are doing and it won't work.

00:55:27.534 --> 00:55:29.039
It will never work.

00:55:29.039 --> 00:55:32.550
We know I've seen the data can't the campaigns on our recruiting campaigns.

00:55:32.550 --> 00:55:36.306
Like we just had a client and they're down a lot of officers.

00:55:36.306 --> 00:55:43.882
And these guys I work with are just brilliant and they actually can tell you the exact cost it takes to hire, how many officers you need.

00:55:43.882 --> 00:55:50.306
They look at the conversion rates of applicant to hire and they ask that question and they go okay, you need 50 officers, is going to cost you this.

00:55:50.306 --> 00:55:51.954
You'll get the people and the department's looking.

00:55:51.954 --> 00:55:55.505
I think I can't a lot being lied to, because everyone's a bunch of scam artists that are talking to.

00:55:55.505 --> 00:55:56.677
They're not being lied to.

00:55:56.697 --> 00:56:03.998
I've watched the time and time again right and and there's a department, and they said and they said, well, how do you do this?

00:56:03.998 --> 00:56:04.744
And they explain.

00:56:04.744 --> 00:56:07.914
And they said, well, well, you use our video because they're all proud of these videos, right.

00:56:07.914 --> 00:56:11.135
And we told them like, we'll use your video, but your video won't work.

00:56:11.135 --> 00:56:17.034
We know from the data in our campaigns but we'll take our four ads that we think will work.

00:56:17.034 --> 00:56:20.161
Well, a B test those ads and we'll put your video in there.

00:56:20.161 --> 00:56:22.065
Their video got a point.

00:56:22.065 --> 00:56:23.608
Oh, three percent engagement.

00:56:23.608 --> 00:56:25.764
No, my, you know, I mean a video.

00:56:25.764 --> 00:56:31.143
I mean when we finally showed him that, he goes oh, dude, we have to understand that comes with humility.

00:56:31.143 --> 00:56:33.708
Mark, what you think you know, you may not know.

00:56:33.708 --> 00:56:40.840
What you like may not be what recruits like, and We've never had to recruit.

00:56:40.840 --> 00:56:44.914
Think, listen, I tested with almost a thousand people for nine spots.

00:56:44.914 --> 00:56:48.695
There were for the duration of my career until the last few years.

00:56:48.695 --> 00:56:55.009
There were many more candidates than we had openings so that means you're not recruiting, you are marketing.

00:56:55.074 --> 00:56:57.394
You're just making your department look good to try to get the best candidates.

00:56:57.394 --> 00:57:00.152
But when you lose that, I call it the 80 20 rule.

00:57:00.152 --> 00:57:04.025
Now we still have 80 percent for the most part that they're gonna come to your department.

00:57:04.025 --> 00:57:04.820
That's just their people.

00:57:04.820 --> 00:57:06.835
God call certain people to serve their community.

00:57:06.835 --> 00:57:08.501
They're gonna try to find a department, do it.

00:57:08.501 --> 00:57:14.347
But that other 20 percent or, if you're Portland, that other 78 percent You're gonna have to go find him.

00:57:14.387 --> 00:57:15.753
You're gonna have to actually recruit.

00:57:15.753 --> 00:57:17.398
Well, that's a specialized skill.

00:57:17.398 --> 00:57:20.106
You don't have any about your department that necessarily knows how to do that.

00:57:20.106 --> 00:57:22.211
You have people that can go to a job fair and wave at people.

00:57:22.211 --> 00:57:28.148
By the way, there's nobody there because there's something called the internet, you know, or you, or you can put you know signs up at a bus station.

00:57:28.148 --> 00:57:32.739
I've heard all these crazy stories there are.

00:57:32.739 --> 00:57:36.067
It's a professional skill and you're gonna have to humble yourself and go.

00:57:36.086 --> 00:57:41.809
Man, I can't solve this problem on my own, but they're throwing a lot of money at it and it's not being solved in.

00:57:41.809 --> 00:57:45.329
My fear is a lot of these leaders Just gonna give up and say that's the way it is.

00:57:45.329 --> 00:57:50.324
No, it's not the way it is and it's, and there's gonna be downstream problems with this, and I want to get you guys opinion on this.

00:57:50.324 --> 00:57:55.605
A lot of departments this is not every department, but there are some departments.

00:57:55.605 --> 00:58:01.702
This is gonna sound crazy, but I have seen it, guys they don't want to solve the recruiting problem.

00:58:01.702 --> 00:58:06.335
Some of the you, some of the unions don't don't get see me an email saying I'm saying everybody.

00:58:06.916 --> 00:58:14.215
Some of the departments, some of the union Don't want to solve the recruiting problem because your biggest cost in the agency is personnel, right?

00:58:14.215 --> 00:58:26.168
Oh yeah, if you're down 20%, you got a lot of money to play with and they're spending that money in overtime for the officers filling the beats, making a ton of money.

00:58:26.168 --> 00:58:30.983
But here's the problem with that the mental health side of that.

00:58:30.983 --> 00:58:41.534
Down the road, exactly, you're taking an Officer that we build and we train for a healthy 2025 year career and by year six they are done.

00:58:41.534 --> 00:58:45.746
Oh yeah, and we're going to see if we do not fix this recruiting issue.

00:58:45.746 --> 00:58:51.005
We keep relying on filling the beats and making all this overtime and you roll some.

00:58:51.005 --> 00:58:52.429
You roll the riots into that.

00:58:52.429 --> 00:58:59.320
We experienced the last several years that we're about to experience this year more than likely, because you know politicians know the no one game, one game only.

00:58:59.360 --> 00:59:02.054
Yeah, that's right when you roll that chaos on top of that.

00:59:02.235 --> 00:59:07.018
There's officers, marked it for almost a year, never got a day off in this country during, do I know?

00:59:07.018 --> 00:59:10.126
Yes, and there, and it was all high stress environments.

00:59:11.016 --> 00:59:12.097
You can only take that for what?

00:59:12.177 --> 00:59:17.128
those, what that's going to do to those individuals, to their life, to their family, to their health.

00:59:17.128 --> 00:59:26.994
We do not want to see what that looks like down the road and no one is talking about that Because there's doesn't seem to be this push to actually figure the recruiting thing out.

00:59:26.994 --> 00:59:31.625
It because they think they have the solution, because they just feel the beats and people work the overtime.

00:59:31.625 --> 00:59:32.887
That's not the solution.

00:59:32.887 --> 00:59:34.579
Oh, we'll give them a big hiring bonus.

00:59:34.961 --> 00:59:41.054
Not the solution, that's because they're going to work for your agency on hiring bonus, they'll leave your agency for another hiring bonus.

00:59:41.054 --> 00:59:42.340
That's not the solution.

00:59:42.340 --> 00:59:52.014
The solution is to fix it right and and you know there are people that care like we've got a couple clients now that they really get it, they really want to fix it and they're working with us and it's working very, very well.

00:59:52.014 --> 00:59:53.980
But there are so many others.

00:59:53.980 --> 00:59:57.568
I had a conversation with the chief the other day and this guy I think he's down 14 officers.

00:59:57.568 --> 00:59:59.539
It's not a not a hard problem to fix.

00:59:59.579 --> 01:00:00.943
We talked about the processes.

01:00:00.943 --> 01:00:02.347
We showed our successes.

01:00:02.347 --> 01:00:05.606
I mean, mark and dr, there's an agency we got.

01:00:05.606 --> 01:00:07.655
We set 1400 people in one month to them.

01:00:07.655 --> 01:00:12.108
It's a big age, holy cow, because we know the processes and they've never seen anything like that before.

01:00:12.108 --> 01:00:14.536
But we know how to do it Right.

01:00:14.536 --> 01:00:16.563
I mean, we actually have smart little technology.

01:00:16.563 --> 01:00:17.385
Kids know how to do it.

01:00:17.385 --> 01:00:21.021
We know how to do it and I say it's not a problem.

01:00:21.021 --> 01:00:25.094
And we gave him a price that was well below their hiring bonus, by the way, that they're giving out.

01:00:25.094 --> 01:00:26.681
Well below is one hiring bonus.

01:00:26.681 --> 01:00:29.882
Oh, and he says, yeah, but can you do a video?

01:00:29.882 --> 01:00:35.224
I Just told you we were going to solve your problem.

01:00:35.936 --> 01:00:38.561
And you came back and said can I do a video?

01:00:38.561 --> 01:00:40.364
Well, of course we can do a video.

01:00:40.364 --> 01:00:42.248
Any 12 year old can do a video.

01:00:42.248 --> 01:00:45.375
But do you want to solve the problem or do you want a video?

01:00:45.375 --> 01:00:47.440
I'm not sure.

01:00:47.440 --> 01:00:49.806
They all want to solve the problem, and that is scary.

01:00:50.795 --> 01:00:56.541
Well, I think, the best recruiter, because I tell you what I loved being a cop.

01:00:56.541 --> 01:00:58.492
Would you, would you agree with that, dr David?

01:00:58.572 --> 01:00:58.795
Oh yes.

01:00:59.155 --> 01:01:01.001
I ate slept pooped.

01:01:01.001 --> 01:01:02.206
Be in the Polis.

01:01:03.416 --> 01:01:06.206
Dr David, you got a lot of work off of mark because he loved it a little too much.

01:01:06.206 --> 01:01:10.215
Yeah, oh yes, that's a lot of available time there at the end.

01:01:12.239 --> 01:01:17.594
But when I was happy in my job, I was the best recruiter my department yet you know, hey, do you love your job?

01:01:17.594 --> 01:01:19.512
Oh, absolutely best job in the world.

01:01:19.512 --> 01:01:21.813
Yeah, I still thinks the best job in the world.

01:01:21.853 --> 01:01:22.777
No, it's a fantastic.

01:01:22.777 --> 01:01:23.579
It's fantastic.

01:01:23.579 --> 01:01:27.601
You say that we actually have an affiliate program, which is not a unique concept.

01:01:27.601 --> 01:01:30.650
Every brand out there you can get an affiliate link and they pay you.

01:01:30.650 --> 01:01:36.146
So we said, hey, stop, give there's an apartment right now that, given 75,000 our bonus, they can't get anybody to come there.

01:01:36.146 --> 01:01:40.103
I said take that money, make your officers their recruiters.

01:01:40.103 --> 01:01:47.608
We can roll out an affiliate program for you and they can put these links out on social media, their friends and when someone clicks, pass the money off the officer.

01:01:47.608 --> 01:01:49.358
And they're just like can you do a video?

01:01:49.358 --> 01:01:50.983
I'm like what is wrong with you.

01:01:51.724 --> 01:01:56.159
You know what's going on here, so it's sort of just these.

01:01:56.159 --> 01:01:59.907
A lot of these leaders think that they can they have the answers for everything.

01:01:59.907 --> 01:02:00.597
They clearly don't.

01:02:00.597 --> 01:02:04.027
There's somebody in every department that has a specialized specialty in everything.

01:02:04.027 --> 01:02:06.563
We just have to empower them and they would change everything.

01:02:06.804 --> 01:02:11.079
So I'm a big social media guy, you know.

01:02:11.079 --> 01:02:13.565
I love Facebook, instagram, you know.

01:02:13.985 --> 01:02:18.199
I see the tick-tock dance, don't do that, but that's all.

01:02:18.280 --> 01:02:19.344
I know you're busting my chops.

01:02:19.344 --> 01:02:19.804
That's funny.

01:02:19.804 --> 01:02:32.146
So our department, my boss, comes back from ACP and and puts out a directive that you have whiskey in here, so be careful what you're saying here, Marcus.

01:02:32.188 --> 01:02:33.731
It's just good old die coat.

01:02:35.496 --> 01:02:36.420
We'll trust you on that.

01:02:36.420 --> 01:02:41.496
So you cannot put any image on Social media.

01:02:41.496 --> 01:02:43.280
This is a policy he came out with.

01:02:43.280 --> 01:02:48.699
We comes back my ACP, because he's all smart now, because you just been down Rubbin elbows with smarter people than him.

01:02:48.699 --> 01:02:55.201
So he thinks our badge, our logo, the side of the car, anything that represents the department.

01:02:55.201 --> 01:03:02.364
So you know, when I was a younger officer, very proud of my job, I was like got a shit, tons of pictures around of me in uniform.

01:03:02.766 --> 01:03:12.240
And I said and I went into him because you know we were trying to launch our social media at our department at the time had Mark Weaver down.

01:03:12.240 --> 01:03:13.565
You know he's talking about.

01:03:13.565 --> 01:03:16.715
You know, thanks to do to get interaction with your, with your Facebook page.

01:03:16.715 --> 01:03:20.346
And I said what would we come up with this?

01:03:20.346 --> 01:03:20.766
Why?

01:03:20.766 --> 01:03:23.699
Why Do you not want it?

01:03:23.699 --> 01:03:26.047
Because I've always positive on my social media.

01:03:26.047 --> 01:03:28.335
My motto is face your problems on Facebook.

01:03:28.335 --> 01:03:36.561
So why don't you want these young officers who damn proud of being the Polis and they want to show all their friends what they're doing At work, why don't you want to do that?

01:03:37.182 --> 01:03:38.106
He leads back and sharing.

01:03:38.106 --> 01:03:42.300
He says what's the best practices, act, who's best practice?

01:03:42.300 --> 01:03:46.298
Well, it's just the way it's gonna be, but who's best practice?

01:03:46.298 --> 01:03:46.701
Why?

01:03:46.701 --> 01:03:48.039
I need to know the why.

01:03:48.039 --> 01:03:57.259
He had nothing other than the fact he went to IACP, he sat in a seminar and whoever that was hosting that seminar says don't let him do this.

01:03:57.259 --> 01:03:59.579
So now you're complaining.

01:03:59.579 --> 01:04:02.681
Chiefs, if you're listening, I have a recruiting problem.

01:04:02.681 --> 01:04:11.181
Well, yeah, because all your young officers and I love what you said earlier, travis was you know, if this person brings someone in, give them a bonus or whichever.

01:04:11.181 --> 01:04:13.719
Now you've just taken all that away.

01:04:13.719 --> 01:04:16.327
Go ahead sir.

01:04:16.414 --> 01:04:19.576
Yeah, you know the thing is now.

01:04:19.576 --> 01:04:33.900
I'm not saying this is me, gentlemen, but you know, as young officers go unmarried, young officers, some of them like to frequent, you know, the hot spots at night where they're maybe looking for the female species or the male species or whatever.

01:04:33.900 --> 01:04:40.483
And let me, I gotta tell you, man, the game always was what do you do for a living?

01:04:40.483 --> 01:04:42.358
Right, I'm the police.

01:04:42.358 --> 01:04:45.943
Yeah, that was beneficial until it wasn't.

01:04:45.943 --> 01:04:49.106
And I know cops today that will never tell anybody.

01:04:49.106 --> 01:04:52.565
That's what they do Right, not outside the job and their leaders did that to them.

01:04:52.936 --> 01:04:54.402
Their leaders did that to them.

01:04:54.402 --> 01:04:59.021
When you take pride away yes, what is the old pig acronym?

01:04:59.021 --> 01:05:02.940
My dad used to have a plaque pride, integrity, guts, guts, yep, yep.

01:05:02.940 --> 01:05:09.219
No acrimony is going on anymore, you know, when you take that pride and integrity and then you punish people for having guts.

01:05:09.621 --> 01:05:09.860
Right.

01:05:10.161 --> 01:05:11.304
Hey, we oughta clip that one right.

01:05:11.304 --> 01:05:21.360
So let me say it again when you take that pride and that integrity and you punish them for having guts, you've ruined that agency.

01:05:21.360 --> 01:05:30.961
Because you're right, the best people that can recruit and help with retention are people that love what they do and they're empowered to tell others about that.

01:05:30.961 --> 01:05:42.523
And I'll be honest, man, I mean I've been so frustrated Sometimes I wake up and I think maybe I'm wrong, like no one else believes what I believe.

01:05:43.094 --> 01:05:48.961
Maybe I'm the crazy one right, because if you are crazy, dr David, you're the last one to know it right, that is great.

01:05:48.961 --> 01:05:50.900
Maybe I'm the crazy one.

01:05:50.900 --> 01:05:52.481
Maybe this is right.

01:05:52.481 --> 01:05:54.902
This is the way it ought to be right.

01:05:54.902 --> 01:06:08.021
We should fire people for no reason and we should pick chiefs that's never been a cop before in reality and we should make officers scared to actually do their job and then give them so much paperwork to do.

01:06:08.021 --> 01:06:23.260
Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm convinced that the successes that I saw in the first 10 years of my career and just these amazing men and women that were able to do that job in extreme circumstances, I'm convinced they still exist.

01:06:23.260 --> 01:06:26.264
We just have to flip the switch and make sure they know it.

01:06:26.454 --> 01:06:38.402
The problem is we're in the middle of imposter syndrome, like there's some departments now that if you've got the greatest leader ever at the top, no one's gonna believe what they're being told because they've been beaten down for so much.

01:06:38.402 --> 01:06:40.202
It's really, really unfortunate.

01:06:40.202 --> 01:06:45.000
You know, I'm extremely popular with the officer rank because they understand this.

01:06:45.000 --> 01:06:46.539
But you go up the rank system.

01:06:46.539 --> 01:06:51.838
I don't get invited to a lot of chiefs conferences, right and so.

01:06:51.838 --> 01:07:03.864
But I believe that if we can get the message to the line officers, even the first line supervisors, they will be in management and upper management eventually and they can do what needs to be done.

01:07:03.864 --> 01:07:11.822
I have extreme hope because, at the end of the day, there's a lot of bad issues going on in the profession, but we still have really good men and women to do the job.

01:07:12.856 --> 01:07:13.639
Oh, absolutely.

01:07:13.639 --> 01:07:22.166
So, while you were talking there, we were talking about there's people in the ranks and your resignation with the.

01:07:22.166 --> 01:07:24.480
I call them the road dogs, the guys that's out there every day.

01:07:24.480 --> 01:07:27.681
And, by the way, midnight crews, if you're listening, we love you, keep doing what you're doing.

01:07:27.681 --> 01:07:32.780
We like day shifts and evening watch too, but the midnight crews, you know, being a midnight sergeant.

01:07:32.894 --> 01:07:34.842
We're going to still have all the calls holding for us.

01:07:35.175 --> 01:07:35.376
Yeah.

01:07:36.615 --> 01:07:37.338
That's right.

01:07:39.480 --> 01:07:48.335
So there's been kind of an attitude, and it was there when I left and you're talking about the body cameras, and my boss at the time said you need to do body camera audits.

01:07:48.335 --> 01:07:50.561
And I said, okay, why?

01:07:50.561 --> 01:07:53.579
Well, to be sure the guys are doing the job correctly.

01:07:53.579 --> 01:07:56.246
Okay, what are we looking for why?

01:07:56.246 --> 01:08:01.663
Well, then he said, well, you know, body cameras will vindicate the officer.

01:08:01.663 --> 01:08:14.639
And then he went down this rabbit hole shortly after imploring the body cameras and spending all the money, that means the supervisor needs to spend a couple hours of my week auditing video and if there's a policy infraction I'm to issue discipline.

01:08:14.639 --> 01:08:18.265
And I said that's absolute horse hockey.

01:08:18.265 --> 01:08:21.494
The purpose of the body camera is to protect the officer.

01:08:21.494 --> 01:08:25.694
Correct, yes, they everyone understand protect him.

01:08:25.835 --> 01:08:31.814
So now we got this mentality that say you got an incident and the lieutenant says hey, sergeant, I want you to go look at this.

01:08:31.814 --> 01:08:38.385
So some of these people that aren't being shown the way, I feel that let's take care of our person.

01:08:38.385 --> 01:08:40.835
And so the Sergeant reviews it.

01:08:40.835 --> 01:08:50.082
So he gets in his mindset that I need to find something wrong, because if I don't get a pound of flesh out of this officer, then I'm not doing my job and I don't want the LT coming after me or whoever's above him.

01:08:50.082 --> 01:08:54.858
What happened to the day when you know so he said the F word.

01:08:54.858 --> 01:09:06.283
I can take care of this at my level and have that conversation with the lieutenant or whomever says you know, if my guy did step on his who, who, is it something at my level we need to take care of?

01:09:07.195 --> 01:09:12.918
Or do I need to, you know, chastise this officer for saying the F word?

01:09:12.918 --> 01:09:15.474
So I think we've gotten into the mindset.

01:09:15.474 --> 01:09:22.038
Especially with the body cameras is that where the cops are afraid to do their job because of that?

01:09:22.038 --> 01:09:39.603
So if I'm out there and sometimes you have to speak the people in the language in which there used to be and talk to, right, I mean, you get somebody from the street who uses lots of foul language or a yeah we should always start with Chick-fil-A and if it's needed, we move up to Delta Airlines, right?

01:09:39.643 --> 01:09:41.487
Yes, that way, yeah, yes.

01:09:42.136 --> 01:09:47.635
But I think that you know, because of that and taking care of so, the guy did get a little aggressive with someone.

01:09:47.635 --> 01:09:48.600
Okay, I got that.

01:09:48.600 --> 01:09:50.600
So tell me the whole circumstance officer.

01:09:50.600 --> 01:09:53.402
Okay, cool, I can, I can report it up the line.

01:09:53.402 --> 01:10:03.382
Honestly, you know, I think that the supervisors, from sergeants to lieutenants, and the lieutenants need to be taking care of the sergeants and the captains need to be taking care of the lieutenants.

01:10:03.954 --> 01:10:27.516
You know, it's not that we're out there trying to hide anything or the blue wall, but I think this attitude and again I'm going to revert back to my earlier statement I think it started around Ferguson because prior to that, I think we took care of people and we had a lot of happy people and when this change came, I knew a lot of the old guys like me were like you know what?

01:10:27.516 --> 01:10:29.922
I got 25 years in F this place.

01:10:29.922 --> 01:10:30.543
I'm leaving.

01:10:30.543 --> 01:10:31.525
And they did.

01:10:31.525 --> 01:10:32.087
They left.

01:10:32.087 --> 01:10:35.064
I mean, I didn't want to work past 30 years.

01:10:35.064 --> 01:10:36.981
It's, this is a young man's game.

01:10:36.981 --> 01:10:47.194
But, like what you were saying earlier, Travis, it really resonated me with the fact that we're just wearing these people out and they're they're done in six to 10 years.

01:10:47.194 --> 01:10:49.081
Why do we have to have a 25 year career.

01:10:49.081 --> 01:10:53.082
Why can't we vest these people in 10 to 15 years?

01:10:54.375 --> 01:10:57.023
Well, I've got a theory behind the pension system.

01:10:57.023 --> 01:10:57.706
Sure, sure.

01:10:57.706 --> 01:11:01.621
By the way, there are departments right now that only still exist because they have a pension system.

01:11:01.621 --> 01:11:03.060
Minneapolis is a prime example.

01:11:03.060 --> 01:11:04.180
They go from 850.

01:11:04.180 --> 01:11:15.301
Now they're hovering in the mid 400s and the only reason they're not down to 150 right now in the Sheriff's Department hasn't taken over that city is because Minnesota has a fantastic pension system.

01:11:15.301 --> 01:11:22.645
So you've got your officers with 10, 15 years on that are holding on for dear life while their politicians are trying to throw them in prison.

01:11:22.645 --> 01:11:25.989
But I believe when I came on, 20 years was the out.

01:11:25.989 --> 01:11:26.994
Everyone left 20.

01:11:26.994 --> 01:11:31.375
That was the standard right and of course the state started incentivized and staying longer.

01:11:31.375 --> 01:11:35.485
But my theory is is why military is at 20 and fire department is traditionally 20.

01:11:35.485 --> 01:11:42.344
We were Christian at 20, is somebody somewhere said and that's probably as long as you need to do this type of job?

01:11:42.344 --> 01:11:42.614
This?

01:11:42.676 --> 01:11:48.881
is a very high stress job, lots of risk, cumulative stress, as Dr Baymore tell you how dangerous that is.

01:11:48.881 --> 01:11:51.844
Oh gosh, 20 years is probably the maximum right.

01:11:51.844 --> 01:11:55.765
And then, as they added the incentives, people start staying longer and longer.

01:11:55.765 --> 01:11:59.314
And then we wonder why our pension systems are so well funded.

01:11:59.314 --> 01:12:07.274
Well, I'll tell you why when we die 10 to 15 years prior to most citizens, that's why your pension system is well funded, right.

01:12:07.274 --> 01:12:17.766
And so, as usual, we're making these decisions on our own, and you said something that's powerful and I talk a lot about in my seminars on culture, because it's so important.

01:12:17.766 --> 01:12:26.421
And if you're working in the agency and you want to know what the or maybe your agency is your story started seeing some things that are weird.

01:12:26.475 --> 01:12:32.104
You're not really down the way of Portland and Chicago yet, but you're seeing some things that are weird seem, some behaviors that are weird.

01:12:32.104 --> 01:12:40.261
Here's how you can tell that your agency is marching down the road of destruction and I call it the hallway conversation.

01:12:40.261 --> 01:12:41.144
And you alluded to it.

01:12:41.144 --> 01:12:48.940
Mark, as a supervisor, as a manager, you know there's a difference in a mistake and an intentional act.

01:12:48.940 --> 01:12:50.198
There's a huge difference.

01:12:50.198 --> 01:12:59.863
Right, yes, we've lost that way, because what used to be a hallway conversation, how you pull a guy on the hallway away from everybody and you go hey, man, I've gotten two complaints in the last month on your speed and your speed.

01:12:59.863 --> 01:13:02.287
Right, man, listen, you can't do that.

01:13:02.287 --> 01:13:03.135
They care about you.

01:13:03.135 --> 01:13:03.818
It's dangerous.

01:13:03.818 --> 01:13:06.966
Stop that, I don't want to get any more complaints from this.

01:13:06.966 --> 01:13:12.126
Right, pat him on the shoulder, say keep up the good work and let that guy go to work and do his job.

01:13:12.775 --> 01:13:17.975
Those have turned from hallway conversations to full blown internal affairs complaints, absolutely.

01:13:17.975 --> 01:13:24.342
And if your agency is there and that is happening, buckle up because it's coming.

01:13:24.342 --> 01:13:27.787
Your culture is being destroyed because you have.

01:13:27.787 --> 01:13:35.886
You have forgiven the ability of those hallway conversations and that's not some idea that these copters say oh see, you're not holding people.

01:13:35.886 --> 01:13:36.387
I don't know.

01:13:36.387 --> 01:13:42.720
Every business in the world that's successful has hallway conversations Absolutely Every one of them.

01:13:42.720 --> 01:13:46.255
These businesses would not exist, because the private world is different.

01:13:46.255 --> 01:13:50.547
If you don't have happy employees, you don't get great products and you don't stay in business.

01:13:50.547 --> 01:13:57.804
Exactly so every business in the world understands the difference between a mistake and an intentional act and they treat it accordingly.

01:13:57.804 --> 01:14:08.101
When your department forgets that and they lost their way, you're going down that path and somebody hopefully somewhere, will interject and get that back on the right track.

01:14:08.735 --> 01:14:09.739
Oh, amen to that.

01:14:09.739 --> 01:14:13.167
It's and Dr David alluded to it earlier.

01:14:13.167 --> 01:14:23.792
When we're talking about how cops are so vicious to one another and I think we get into that loop of you're overworked, you're mad, you're negative, and now you've got this person above you.

01:14:23.792 --> 01:14:27.123
That's, you know, just criticizing everything that we do.

01:14:27.123 --> 01:14:31.787
And this is a high stress, high liability job.

01:14:31.787 --> 01:14:36.194
And if you're, if you're, a chief, it's high stress, high liability.

01:14:36.194 --> 01:14:41.215
You know that getting in there and you can't go in there and just think that this job is about you.

01:14:41.215 --> 01:14:47.203
And I really love when you said that earlier on Travis, that you know most of the chiefs nowadays are doing this for them.

01:14:47.203 --> 01:14:49.181
They aren't doing it for the department.

01:14:49.996 --> 01:14:55.662
And I had the blessing of working for a boss that was all about the department and all about every officer.

01:14:55.662 --> 01:15:02.064
And he would just when he walked through our road room what we call it where we did our reports, you know he would sit down with this couple going, hey, how are you doing today?

01:15:02.064 --> 01:15:03.234
How's your family doing?

01:15:03.234 --> 01:15:08.354
And he actually showed general empathy and concern for you and he'd say, hey, I got to get over the council.

01:15:08.354 --> 01:15:11.439
Hey, take care of anything, my door's open, Just come down and see me.

01:15:12.154 --> 01:15:15.778
And he would always ask us early on and as a young officer Mark, what do you want to do?

01:15:15.778 --> 01:15:17.060
What do you mean chief?

01:15:17.060 --> 01:15:18.309
I want to be the police.

01:15:18.309 --> 01:15:21.854
You're that already, so it's just like a medical professional.

01:15:21.854 --> 01:15:23.301
What do you want to specialize in?

01:15:23.301 --> 01:15:24.640
What drives you?

01:15:24.640 --> 01:15:26.078
And you don't answer this?

01:15:26.078 --> 01:15:34.009
Now Get back to me on that, because I'm going to help you develop into the person you want to be, and I like to drive.

01:15:34.009 --> 01:15:34.795
I'm a car guy.

01:15:34.795 --> 01:15:35.198
You know.

01:15:35.198 --> 01:15:36.515
That's how I first met you, Travis.

01:15:36.515 --> 01:15:39.755
I remember sitting there one night and I'm on your first website.

01:15:39.755 --> 01:15:40.337
Can we say it?

01:15:40.337 --> 01:15:43.783
I know you sold it, but no, I didn't sell it.

01:15:43.884 --> 01:15:44.345
I didn't sell it.

01:15:44.345 --> 01:15:45.675
Still, I just don't do much with it.

01:15:45.675 --> 01:15:48.286
But yeah, I mean I'm the notes to me in 1999.

01:15:48.286 --> 01:15:50.215
There wasn't a police driving website up yet.

01:15:50.215 --> 01:15:59.992
I did put the website up to keep me from being so busy because I was sending this is going to age me I was sending CD ROMs of curriculum to agencies that were asking for it.

01:16:00.880 --> 01:16:05.074
I had this crazy idea If I just put a website up, they'll leave me alone.

01:16:05.074 --> 01:16:12.475
Oh, when you put the first website up back in the day of a topic, everything then, of course, blew up.

01:16:12.475 --> 01:16:14.081
It's police driving dot com.

01:16:14.201 --> 01:16:16.673
Yeah, yeah, and it was just such a great.

01:16:16.673 --> 01:16:22.765
I was like, oh my God, I think I found the Holy Grail here, so and I still play that with- Microsoft front page.

01:16:22.814 --> 01:16:25.666
I don't think it was that great, but it was 1999.

01:16:25.706 --> 01:16:25.887
Right.

01:16:26.417 --> 01:16:27.582
So it wasn't much out there.

01:16:27.694 --> 01:16:35.914
The content was great and I still use your video today when I teach my recruits the from from about wearing a seat belt.

01:16:35.914 --> 01:16:37.095
So I use that even today.

01:16:37.095 --> 01:16:41.943
I think I've sent you some snapshots in the past, but anyway, so that's my thing.

01:16:41.943 --> 01:16:42.876
I'm a driver, you know.

01:16:42.876 --> 01:16:45.704
He facilitated me going to the federal law enforcement training center.

01:16:45.704 --> 01:16:46.438
I mean total.

01:16:46.438 --> 01:16:54.225
I've been down there five weeks, not concurrently, but you know in what I do and I'm also I'm blessed right now to be still teaching.

01:16:54.225 --> 01:16:59.259
Today we taught 15 officers pursue termination techniques the last day of her class at state.

01:16:59.259 --> 01:17:06.108
You know, I teach at the basic level, so it's kind of a niche, and my boss was like go for it, man, I'm going to facilitate everything you can do.

01:17:06.108 --> 01:17:08.502
I'm also a car guy, so he made me the fleet manager.

01:17:09.457 --> 01:17:13.654
I had a blessing of being a hard man, finding people love and plug him in.

01:17:13.694 --> 01:17:16.734
Yeah, and he did, and I served three years on the four police advisory board.

01:17:16.734 --> 01:17:23.512
It's like, oh man, you know, I had a really great career and then, unfortunately, god called him home.

01:17:23.512 --> 01:17:27.854
Okay so, and we gave him an honors funeral, but then things started to change.

01:17:27.854 --> 01:17:32.375
And the next guy in the door, just everything was the same.

01:17:32.375 --> 01:17:42.243
And then when he started implementing him, then we started going down to one downhill then the cow we started showing him in the hands of great yeah.

01:17:42.783 --> 01:17:43.024
Thank you.

01:17:43.024 --> 01:17:54.221
But you know, and then we're like, hmm, then we stopped taking care of people, then we started over disciplining people and I'm like and I remember being a sewer it's like, is this really necessary?

01:17:54.221 --> 01:17:56.403
This guy's like we had to wear one of her officers.

01:17:56.403 --> 01:18:04.521
He was my officer officer of the year high speed, low drag, great arrest, great interaction with the people.

01:18:04.521 --> 01:18:07.823
Well, he found himself in a bad spot one night and got a DUI.

01:18:07.823 --> 01:18:10.145
Horrible.

01:18:10.145 --> 01:18:12.452
The local news media.

01:18:12.452 --> 01:18:20.805
For some reason, our city is clickbait for the local news media app, so he led in every story because they want a ratings right.

01:18:20.805 --> 01:18:31.239
So, um, I think a severe penalty for a first offense OVI is 10 days.

01:18:31.239 --> 01:18:32.667
I think that's heavy handed.

01:18:32.667 --> 01:18:36.067
I think the estate average here in Ohio is five days.

01:18:36.548 --> 01:18:38.701
Yeah, it always depends on the history, right?

01:18:38.701 --> 01:18:40.628
They've been in trouble before this and that, yeah.

01:18:40.729 --> 01:18:42.594
You got to put everything in context.

01:18:42.594 --> 01:18:44.488
This kid is a model officer Again.

01:18:44.488 --> 01:18:45.712
High speed, low drag, great guy.

01:18:45.712 --> 01:18:52.494
That chief gave him 30 days unpaid, yeah, and I went are you kidding me?

01:18:52.494 --> 01:18:54.439
This is for a first offense.

01:18:54.505 --> 01:18:57.212
Guys, we are man, this, this is fantastic.

01:18:57.212 --> 01:19:05.826
I can't thank you enough for being here, and I'm we're going to bring this to an end in a minute because we're going to come back on and do this again, but I wanted to end with one last question.

01:19:05.826 --> 01:19:09.376
Yes, sir, I want us to talk to the first line supervisors out there.

01:19:09.376 --> 01:19:22.260
The corporals, the sergeants maybe in some departments, the lieutenants the people that I believe had the most impact at their agency can leave generational legacy pouring into the people that work for them.

01:19:22.260 --> 01:19:27.466
I want first I'll start with Dr David and then Mark, you can take it over what's the one piece of advice you give them?

01:19:27.466 --> 01:19:28.127
What would you give them?

01:19:29.570 --> 01:19:32.507
People that are already employed in the long run.

01:19:32.507 --> 01:19:32.810
Yeah To these.

01:19:32.850 --> 01:19:36.451
To these to these supervisors that are that are having the responsibility of these men.

01:19:36.631 --> 01:19:42.076
What advice would you give those supervisors in the office of everything we've been talking about today?

01:19:42.076 --> 01:19:43.828
Because they're discouraged, right.

01:19:43.828 --> 01:19:49.287
We want to encourage them and give them some advice that really helped them, because I don't care how bad it is in your department.

01:19:49.287 --> 01:19:59.210
If you're a sergeant or or corporal refer, you have control of what 10, 10, 15 people, sometimes four people, five people you get to change their lives, regardless of what's going on.

01:19:59.210 --> 01:20:00.926
What, what's the piece of advice you give them?

01:20:01.846 --> 01:20:04.653
I say become intimate with your limitations.

01:20:05.835 --> 01:20:07.859
Oh wow, I like that.

01:20:08.078 --> 01:20:10.391
I feel like I got a senior check for listening to that one.

01:20:10.391 --> 01:20:11.154
That's what I'm doing.

01:20:14.265 --> 01:20:22.349
Thank you, it's what it was, my first lesson of adulthood in my career in my field was to learn.

01:20:22.349 --> 01:20:26.637
What I didn't know was more important than what I did.

01:20:26.637 --> 01:20:27.587
Yeah.

01:20:27.587 --> 01:20:28.007
And.

01:20:28.007 --> 01:20:31.536
I have to become intimate with my limitations.

01:20:31.595 --> 01:20:33.796
I'm going barefoot right now and I'm grounding right now.

01:20:33.796 --> 01:20:34.684
I'm just listening to that.

01:20:34.684 --> 01:20:35.386
That's amazing.

01:20:35.445 --> 01:20:37.011
That's why we call him master Yoda.

01:20:37.011 --> 01:20:39.115
What about?

01:20:39.155 --> 01:20:39.516
you Mark.

01:20:41.704 --> 01:20:42.266
Wow it's.

01:20:42.266 --> 01:20:43.712
It's hard to follow that up.

01:20:43.712 --> 01:20:47.306
I mean I'm just still kind of taking that in.

01:20:47.306 --> 01:20:50.238
First line supervisors, take care of your people.

01:20:50.238 --> 01:20:55.814
Number one and I know that sounds cavalier Make sure that they got what they need.

01:20:55.814 --> 01:20:59.631
Don't sit back and want to point the fingers.

01:20:59.631 --> 01:21:02.496
Be involved, show up to work.

01:21:03.337 --> 01:21:06.251
All these incidents you talked about Minneapolis.

01:21:06.251 --> 01:21:07.613
Where's the stripe?

01:21:07.613 --> 01:21:10.528
Why wasn't our supervisor there?

01:21:10.528 --> 01:21:21.832
That was an ongoing shit show and I can tell you and Travis and I know, if you were working that day and you heard that radio traffic, you'd have been whatever you were doing.

01:21:21.832 --> 01:21:22.753
Hey man, I got to go.

01:21:22.753 --> 01:21:23.850
I got something going.

01:21:23.850 --> 01:21:24.573
I'll get back with you.

01:21:24.573 --> 01:21:25.600
Hang the phone up.

01:21:25.600 --> 01:21:29.238
I'm throwing my vest on and I'm double timing it down to that scene.

01:21:30.622 --> 01:21:33.854
Any of these brain, if you're a supervisor, be involved.

01:21:33.854 --> 01:21:38.328
Your people cannot survive out there on the street without your.

01:21:38.328 --> 01:21:40.735
And don't be that mother hen overshadowing.

01:21:40.735 --> 01:21:41.648
Find the balance.

01:21:41.648 --> 01:21:47.673
But when there's time for the supervisor to step in and to take care of business, do your jobs, guys.

01:21:47.673 --> 01:21:53.761
I mean, I've heard several here in my area, in the Dayton Ohio area, that you know where's your stripe at.

01:21:53.761 --> 01:21:55.346
He never comes out of the office.

01:21:55.346 --> 01:21:57.972
Oh gosh, that that hurts me.

01:21:57.972 --> 01:21:59.576
No, get involved.

01:22:00.137 --> 01:22:03.418
And I'm not saying being a micromanager, what do you need?

01:22:03.418 --> 01:22:05.831
You know I'd show up on scene, what do you need?

01:22:05.831 --> 01:22:08.585
And one time one of my people, the guy, comes over.

01:22:08.585 --> 01:22:14.653
Sorry, this is no, no, no, no, no, no, I'm not in charge here, man, you need to go talk to him, because that's the guy that's going to be arresting you, or not?

01:22:14.653 --> 01:22:15.890
So take care of him.

01:22:15.890 --> 01:22:24.291
And when we got down with this, he, my officer, said man, thank you so much for doing that, because that really empowered me, that you trusted me and trusted my decisions.

01:22:24.291 --> 01:22:28.233
So support your people, trust them, empower them to make good decisions.

01:22:29.359 --> 01:22:30.604
Man, I should have gone first with these.

01:22:30.604 --> 01:22:34.037
This answer, you know.

01:22:34.037 --> 01:22:40.755
I want to say something that's a little bit different, I think know the names of your officer's family.

01:22:40.755 --> 01:22:45.966
Oh, amen oh yes, very good, very good.

01:22:45.966 --> 01:22:50.341
You know, know their wife's name Absolutely In a good way.

01:22:50.722 --> 01:22:52.028
No, no, their kids names.

01:22:52.390 --> 01:22:55.081
Yeah, ask them about their family, absolutely.

01:22:55.081 --> 01:23:05.435
And you know, and I'll be honest, man, if I was a mayor of some city with a police chief I just had to buy my chief I'd make a list off the family members of all their employees and see how many they could list.

01:23:05.435 --> 01:23:06.521
That's right what.

01:23:06.521 --> 01:23:10.755
I would know immediately whether they cared for that off for that department or not.

01:23:10.755 --> 01:23:12.704
Yes, yes, yes, man.

01:23:12.704 --> 01:23:14.237
What an incredible time.

01:23:14.237 --> 01:23:16.646
Gentlemen, I really can't thank you guys enough.

01:23:16.646 --> 01:23:18.273
Do you guys have an outro of your show?

01:23:18.273 --> 01:23:22.351
You want to sort of give or or, and then I'll give my honor.

01:23:22.412 --> 01:23:31.007
You guys just play Dr David's great montage before you leave that I'm always telling Dr David he needs to be doinga voiceover work for books.

01:23:31.007 --> 01:23:34.027
On your next book, travis, have Dr David do the reading.

01:23:34.469 --> 01:23:36.739
That's such a great voice on the outro.

01:23:36.760 --> 01:23:38.930
You mean how to get a hold of us, or what do you mean?

01:23:39.131 --> 01:23:40.456
I guess we should say that right.

01:23:40.456 --> 01:23:45.465
So how do you kind of, how do you get contacted, how do you listen to your show, all that stuff?

01:23:45.585 --> 01:23:46.146
Okay, great.

01:23:46.146 --> 01:23:52.764
We're on all major podcast platforms audible pandora, I heart.

01:23:52.764 --> 01:23:55.113
Radio to the shield within podcast.

01:23:55.113 --> 01:23:57.882
You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.

01:23:57.882 --> 01:24:03.074
Backslice to shield within our website is wwwtheshieldwithincom.

01:24:03.074 --> 01:24:09.355
We're also on Instagram, and then course myself my mark, the cop moniker.

01:24:09.355 --> 01:24:13.194
I'm on X, instagram and all the other good stuff as well.

01:24:13.194 --> 01:24:18.729
And, dr David, your technology challenged right.

01:24:18.770 --> 01:24:19.692
It's by choice.

01:24:21.055 --> 01:24:24.668
I love my chapter than we are for sure I love my ignorance.

01:24:25.752 --> 01:24:29.542
Well, same here I'm, all I'm.

01:24:29.542 --> 01:24:31.368
My podcast is on all the same platforms.

01:24:31.368 --> 01:24:43.605
The actual podcast website we have is Yates leadershipcom, but really the easiest way, if folks are listening and they want to get resources, articles, podcast our seminars and what we're doing, we're about to roast some online stuff out.

01:24:43.605 --> 01:24:45.771
You can go to Travis Yatesorg.

01:24:45.771 --> 01:24:55.858
I'd love to hear from you, and every week we're putting material out, you know, just for free for to help folks, and so I'd love to hear from anybody listening.

01:24:55.858 --> 01:24:58.592
Gentlemen, I can't thank you enough.

01:24:58.654 --> 01:25:02.712
It's incredible, it's an honor and a pleasure and definitely we need to do this again, yeah.

01:25:02.912 --> 01:25:04.115
Yeah, we definitely will.

01:25:04.115 --> 01:25:09.051
Thank you, gentlemen, so much and if you've been listening, thank you and just remember lead on and stay courageous.

01:25:11.484 --> 01:25:14.394
Thank you for listening to courageous leadership with Travis Yates.

01:25:14.394 --> 01:25:17.671
We invite you to join other courageous leaders at www.

01:25:17.671 --> 01:25:18.153
Travis Yates.

01:25:18.153 --> 01:25:19.256
org.