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Jan. 14, 2025
Stop Resisting with Dr. Jeremy Butler
Grappling arts like Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu can revolutionize law enforcement training, offering officers practical skills that enhance safety and community trust. Dr. Jeremy Butler emphasizes the need for continuous, realistic training methods that move beyond outdated practices, ultimately fostering better control and minimizing harm in tense situations.
• Discusses the importance of grappling-based training for police officers
• Highlights Dr. Butler's extensive background in law enforcement and martial arts
• Explores the need for realistic, hands-on training methods
• Emphasizes overcoming ego to engage in continuous learning
• Provides guidance on forming partnerships with martial arts gyms
• Presents research supporting the benefits of BJJ in reducing injuries
• Encourages setting specific training goals for personal and professional growth
• Advocates for a culture of proactive, capability-focused training in law enforcement
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Transcript
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And why do I say a grappling-based art?
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Because I feel anytime you have to put hands on a subject, you're essentially grappling with them.
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If they resist you, right, so it is inevitable, right.
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The act of struggling with another person to seize hold of or control that person is grappling.
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Welcome to Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates, where leaders find the insights, advice and encouragement they need to lead courageously.
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Welcome back to the show.
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I'm so honored you decided to spend a few minutes with us here today and I'm excited about today's guest.
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You will be as well.
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Dr Jeremy Butler is a former police officer with over 20 years of martial arts experience.
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Jeremy Butler is a former police officer with over 20 years of martial arts experience.
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He's the author of the incredible book Stop Resisting.
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He trains law enforcement and control tactics, de-escalation and mental performance across the country.
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A lot of stuff to talk about today, dr Butler.
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How are you doing, sir?
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I'm doing good.
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How are you?
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I'm great.
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So I mean, I'll first talk about your book and this is how you came on the radar and I have to tell everybody listening you need to go get it.
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I'm sure it's on all the booksellers.
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I got it on Amazon.
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It's called Stop Resisting the Law Enforcement Officer's Guide to Prove and Control Taxes, less Lawsuits and Building Community Trust Through Martial Arts.
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I couldn't think of a better subtitle because we've been kind of going round and round about how to deal with use of force and things like that, because I'll tell you, modern law enforcement training.
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It's improved.
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But I'll never forget that those silly arm bars they taught me in the academy never worked.
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That silly plastic ass they gave me never really worked.
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And it wasn't until the tail end of my career when I got into altercation with a little 95-pound-like woman, uh, who shouldn't have been able to be that spider-like, but I was trying to keep from essentially really hurting her, right, I was trying to do some things to not hurt her and, uh, I confided in a friend of mine after that, dr Butler, and I said do you have any suggestions?
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And he said without hesitation this wasn't my department, it wasn't my boss, it wasn't the academy, it was a friend of mine that said you need to get into my jujitsu gym.
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And I did that and it changed my entire mentality.
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What we've been teaching law enforcement and you've got incredible background and stuff.
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I can't even.
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I can't even pronounce most of your certifications and your all your black belt.
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So I'll let you do the talking.
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But I know you spent several years in law enforcement.
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Tell us your experience with the training that was going on versus reality.
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Well, I'll say there was a lot of, I feel like, in my background, a lot of you know politics, I guess you can say so.
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It seems like some of the training was um politics, I guess you can say so.
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It seems like some of the training was really more about checking the box and making sure you're, you know, fulfilling you know, whatever uh saying we did it right, we did it, don't forget sign the pledge.
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We signed the pledge that makes us better exactly so.
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So I definitely felt like I was seeing a lot of a lot of that.
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Uh, in my experience and that's not even calling out any particular department, I'm just saying overall in the law enforcement industry, I noticed that sort of trend, and so for me that got a little frustrating.
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Being a martial artist, being someone with my background has always been my passion.
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I mean, I started when I was about 12 years old, so it's been many, many years of training, and so for me it was like I know that these things that we're doing could be better.
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I'm not saying it's all horrible, I'm just saying we're not.
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I didn't feel like we were positioning officers the way that we should be considering what's being asked of law enforcement.
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So that's what really drove me to get into the research, get into the writing and doing the work myself to help educate officers.
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Well, one person changes everything.
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And I call you, know, and that's what you're doing.
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Because I'm amazed we're this far down in in law enforcement in this country and we don't see more of this, and I think a lot of it is, like you said, the old standard way of doing things, old types of training, politics or, or, dr Butler, what do you know?
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You're a rookie, we're not going to listen to you and all the stuff that I have to imagine.
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It was probably incredibly frustrating.
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You just sat here and think to yourself man, I know how to do this way better because of my training, but we're not going to call anybody out.
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But I know my experience is we don't listen to the right people.
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Oftentimes we listen to people that maybe have been there for a hundred years and we listen to them.
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We don't actually tap into the expertise or agencies.
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And and it's become to me very present that's why I have you on the show because we're not giving our officers, uh, the tools they need to overcome so much that they're dealt with.
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That they're dealing with today, right, I mean, it's not using a taser in every incident clearly doesn't work.
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And then many of these officers, that's the only tools they have and I see a hesitation to go hands-on because they clearly don't have the tools to go hands-on.
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But that changes the game if they, if they have the confidence and the training and tools to be able to quickly go hands-on.
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Get handcuffs on people because last, because last time I checked, I'm not trained like you, dr Butler, but these are the only things that can really kill you.
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Is this right here?
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And there's a ton of items, a ton of things we can do for our officers, and I guess I would just get straight to the point.
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So there's a ton of different martial arts out there.
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I don't I'd love to see entire departments pick up on this.
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I know some of have.
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We'll talk about that.
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But as an individual officer like me, you know, I'm thinking it was much easier to go into martial arts at age 12 than it was at age 50, right, I mean?
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So obviously I'm at a disadvantage, but I had to overcome a couple of things and I bet it's it's the same thinking that officers have.
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Well, I've been here 28 years and I haven't, you know, had this or this happen.
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And how am I going to walk into this gym with a bunch of, basically, kids that know better than me how do I overcome it.
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You've got to stop your ego at the door.
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You've got to just know that your safety and, like you said in this book, less lawsuits, better community trust is more important than your precious ego.
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It changed the dynamics, don't get me wrong.
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I was beat up by many a 12-year-old doing Jiu-Jitsu gym.
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I changed the dynamics.
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Now don't get me wrong.
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I was beat up by many a 12 year old in the Jiu-Jitsu gym.
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I still am today, but I know I knew more after one week than I knew after 20 plus years in law enforcement.
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So if somebody's out there and they're thinking to themselves, you know what?
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I don't think.
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The old arm bar and wrist control in the basic academy where everybody says, uncle, really quick and it just seems to work and I, I check the box and I'm certified in real life.
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That probably doesn't help.
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I need to quit just laying back and thinking this taser is going to work, because if taser tells us it works 40 of the time, that means 10 of the time.
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We know that and uh, and where you're from, dr butler and co, weather jackets and all the other stuff's going to prevent that.
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So we've sort of lied and fibbed to officers.
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We've told them this technology is their answer, but we haven't seen shootings go down.
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We haven't seen use of force go down.
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If anything, we've seen them increase in recent years.
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There's a, there's a low-hanging fruit out there that very few people want to talk about, and that is martial arts, which you're an expert at.
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So what would you tell an officer thinking about this?
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How do they start?
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Because there, because there's a ton of different martial arts.
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Right, I have a feeling which one you're going to say.
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How do they start when it comes to this?
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Well, I think it starts with the power of Google Find what's available in your area.
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But as far as my recommendations, I am a huge proponent for law enforcement, of a grappling based art, for me, number one being Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.
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But that does not mean judo doesn't count.
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I think that would work well.
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Wrestling even an officer who wrestled in high school has a huge advantage in that regard.
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And why do I say a grappling-based art?
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Because I feel, anytime you have to put hands on a subject, you're essentially grappling with them.
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If they resist you, so it is inevitable.
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Because I feel anytime you have to put hands on a subject, you're essentially grappling with them if they resist you, right?
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So it is inevitable, right?
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The act of struggling with another person to seize hold of or control that person is grappling, so why not get good in that particular area?
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So, for me, grappling-based arts are my main recommendation.
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Now, if you could get into an area where you could also incorporate striking, that's good, because that's what's likely to happen with the subject.
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But arts like Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu when you're at the right school.
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That's the one thing I appreciate about it is that you can incorporate striking-based training without actually hurting each other, right?
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You can simulate strikes and it gives you that awareness of what's going on.
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And one thing that I talk about in the book is, for example, if you were to find a place to train let's say, for example, it's jujitsu even if you were at a sport-based school right where they don't do any striking, that doesn't mean you can't have that in your mind when you're training, right.
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So one of the places that I've trained throughout my life is a sport-based school and we didn't really address striking.
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But whenever I rode which is live grappling whenever I went live, I was thinking right now, can he touch my face, can he access my belt, things of that nature.
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When that's fresh in my mind, I'm able to get the same benefit, if that makes sense.
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No, I think part of the obstacle to many agencies is we're kind of hung up on what things look like, right, I mean, I could tell story after story of officers doing the right thing at my agency or others, but the administration was more concerned of what it looked like, got to get away from that.
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But that I have a theory.
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It's not grounded anything.
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But my crazy mind is we don't see a lot of emphasis on brazilian jiu-jitsu or these grappling things, because from afar that looks kind of bad.
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Right, we're on top of somebody, we're controlling somebody, but the alternative is, is we're hitting them with a fist or we're having to shoot them, we're having to tase them.
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I've never understood why we don't embrace this, because what I found out and you would be the expert here, dr Butler is you can control somebody with just.
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I think you described five things in your book to learn immediately.
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But it doesn't take really an expert to learn these controlling mechanisms because fortunately, most people we fight with are not highly trained martial arts people.
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Those folks tend to be very disciplined.
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They're not going to be people we're running across, running into in the streets and I'd say it couldn't have happened.
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But most people have no sense of this whatsoever.
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They're just fighting.
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They're like this fighter lady that I had to fight with, and you can use some control tactics that is not that difficult to learn to really, in my mind, decrease injury.
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You may be still writing the use of force report, but it's going to decrease the injuries that's going to occur.
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Do you find that to be true?
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Yes, because there's no.
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Again, when I talk about incorporated striking, the officer isn't throwing the strikes.
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The officer is making sure that they're remaining safe by controlling the distance between themselves and the subject.
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So, absolutely right, you're going to really be protecting that person and yourself by gaining control of them and maintaining that control until that person decides they're ready to go in cuffs.
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So if we learn this way to slow things down to a certain extent, I think it can certainly help.
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Obviously, circumstances dictate tactics.
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So my thing is I don't think anything is an end-all, be-all.
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There are limitations to a grappling-based art in certain instances, right, like there are certain environments where you don't want to, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't train it.
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I'd say, under most circumstances it's inevitable, right?
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Whether you want it to or not, the situation is going to end up in this, in close entanglement, and more than likely you are going to fall to the ground, right?
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The other thing I want to say in relation to that is, even if you do come across a situation where this person is significantly bigger, stronger than you or even superior to you physically, you can still be able to survive with these skills.
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So let's say you have, and I teach at a police academy and I tell this to my smaller officers and my female officers all the time.
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Right, they may feel, okay, I try to, you know.
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Let's say I do get this guy down and I try to put him in side control.
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If he's 100 pounds heavier than me, he could just literally throw me off.
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And I'm like, yes, that is possible.
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The level of training you have right now, someone superior in size may be able to throw you off.
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The more training you get, the more consistent you are, the less likely that is to happen.
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But there is a certain point where it's just we have to respect nature.
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But my thing is, are you any worse off with those skills?
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Even, let's say, this person threw you off and jumped on top of you.
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I have so much faith in the person with the years of grappling training on bottom of a guy twice their size.
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Right, then I do a person who has gone through our standard law enforcement curriculum.
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Why?
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Because they spent hours and hours and hours of time in these bad positions, in these inferior positions, so they're able to remain calm under the stress of having someone bigger, heavier, stronger than you on top of you.
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So it's the attribute that we must consider here too is the attribute of getting used to being in that struggle and a relatively safe environment.
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So when it happens on the job, you're not panicked, you're like I've been here before, I can control the distance, I can control the damage that the person can do to me, and that was one of the first things that I was shown, as my white belt self was getting beat up by 12 year olds, is is they would put you in these very uncomfortable, uncomfortable positions and your, your, your, your default is to panic, is to exert more energy, but you're going to flame out very quickly, right, and?
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And so be able to get comfortable in that was a huge help.
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I laughed, I laughed.
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I think I saw you post the other day about having goals of being able to go five rounds of these.
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Five rounds of training back to back.
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To back should be ultimate goal, and I'll never forget the first time.
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It's OK, five minutes, some are five minute, five minute round.
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I thought, ok, how hard would this be.
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I watch this on TV.
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Yeah, until you do five minutes for the first time, you don't realize how difficult that is, and I eventually got to where I could do four or five back-to-back-to-back without taking a break.
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But people don't realize that, and this is a regressive skill.
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I'm just concerned and why I'm glad you're on is is we give this training in the academy.
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It's not enough to really ingrain muscle memory in, but then we don't typically give it again, right, and there's a reason why people train in martial arts two or three, four times a week, sometimes more, because it's that regressive skill and so, if you're, obviously the answer is for individuals listening to this to go and pursue this to make sure they're prepared.
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But I think really this has got to be on our police leaders.
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You know we interviewed chief Jim Franklin from Rochester, minnesota, and the reason we interviewed him about a year ago is because I'll put the episode link down below the show notes is because he not only coordinated with a local jujitsu gym to train his entire department, but he went himself and they eventually ended up, you know, all belting together and moving up and they trained together like that every day.
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So I thought that was so amazing.
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It shouldn't be be amazing.
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We should have chiefs and sheriffs training with their personnel all the time.
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But it was such a unique story.
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I had him on.
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It was one of our most listened to episodes.
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I think it's because it was so interesting and so amazing that it's happening.
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But there's not a police department in the country that within earshot could not find a trainer or gym to partner with them, probably at a discounted cost or almost for nothing.
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I train for nothing at our local gym, because there's always gyms that want to train law enforcement.
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They recognize that.
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So if you're a leader listening to this and you recognize, not only for yourself but for your officers, you need to provide this.
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How should they go about finding that gym Like when they look at gyms?
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I mean you need to go a little deeper than Google, because not every gym's the same.
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What type of questions should they ask that gym owner before they make that partnership?
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Yeah, so so for sure, the the first step is making sure it's practical in terms of location, right.
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So this is why I say start with Google, right, find what do you have in your area and then from there it's a matter of contacting that business and having that conversation.
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Oftentimes you'll find that, you know, depending on the size of the department, there's officers that do train in some of these gyms.
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So being able to first of all kind of see right, there's anybody that's already in law enforcement community that does train I think is a big thing because they can bridge that sort of gap.
00:16:45.033 --> 00:16:59.702
But, yeah, sitting down and having that conversation with that business owner and saying what your needs are, what your interests are and I don't know many martial arts schools that don't have an interest in helping the law enforcement community, right.
00:16:59.702 --> 00:17:03.625
So I do think it will be a pretty seamless transition.
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I can give you a couple examples of this.
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I presented in Atlanta a couple of years ago I think it was that conference where I talked about this, my experience with this very thing.
00:17:15.443 --> 00:17:26.782
So the place that I trained in my area, it happens to be literally around the corner from the police department and this police department I got connected with the chief.
00:17:26.782 --> 00:17:30.342
He liked me, so I started doing in-service trainings for them.
00:17:30.342 --> 00:17:35.676
The limitation was that the space that the agency is pretty small.
00:17:35.676 --> 00:17:39.364
They didn't really have much space for us to really get into any training.
00:17:39.364 --> 00:17:41.467
So I said straight up hey, I trained at the jujitsu agency is pretty small, they didn't really have much space for us to really get into any training so.
00:17:41.467 --> 00:17:43.064
So I said straight up you know, hey, I trained at the jujitsu school around the corner.
00:17:43.064 --> 00:17:47.871
Maybe I can connect you guys with them, and then we can see if we can work something out.
00:17:47.871 --> 00:18:06.616
Long story short, we got to a point where we worked out where the owners of the of the jujitsu school don't use the facility during the day, so they essentially allowed me, they gave me a key and allowed me to train this police department during the day on the jiu-jitsu mats, right, and they were getting accreditation for their training.
00:18:06.616 --> 00:18:12.239
So it's just being able to find those connecting points and using that networking to make it work.
00:18:12.298 --> 00:18:19.075
If you don't have any foundation, again, it starts with a phone call agency, introducing yourself to the business owner and maybe setting up a meeting.
00:18:19.075 --> 00:18:30.411
Another thing I think to consider here, though, is the school that you, that you select Right, because not every martial art is necessarily going to be applicable for law enforcement Right.
00:18:30.411 --> 00:18:34.902
So so you have to consider what are your needs as an agency.
00:18:34.902 --> 00:18:38.615
Ideally talk to officers who currently train.
00:18:38.615 --> 00:18:51.234
Also, again, things like my book, my research, there's information out there to give these agencies context right from actual officers or former officers.
00:18:51.234 --> 00:19:07.324
So gathering that information I think is big, and then just taking it from there and if any officers, any agencies actually interested in something like that, I'm sure they can reach out to yourself or myself and we can kind of help guide them in that direction if they're, if they're really serious about that.
00:19:07.324 --> 00:19:08.653
But yeah, I will.
00:19:09.115 --> 00:19:14.213
I think that's one of the unfortunate things, because as a leader, there is no excuse Like these.
00:19:14.213 --> 00:19:17.005
Gyms, by and large, are very patriotic.
00:19:17.005 --> 00:19:20.739
They're very pro law enforcement, they understand the issues we face.
00:19:20.739 --> 00:19:25.320
They understand oftentimes our training doesn't meet what the demands are out there on the street.
00:19:25.320 --> 00:19:29.238
I mean I haven't found any of them that will not work with you now.
00:19:29.238 --> 00:19:35.000
Uh, I mean, there's even some websites that I've seen where these martial arts folks are just there.
00:19:35.000 --> 00:19:36.163
It's for free, like I would be.
00:19:36.163 --> 00:19:43.758
I'd be shocked if it wasn and I know there's some online things.
00:19:43.758 --> 00:19:48.021
I'm a member of Gracie's Online Academy.
00:19:48.021 --> 00:19:51.661
I'll be honest, it doesn't really work for me because I'm just the only person here doing it.
00:19:51.661 --> 00:19:58.998
So unless I buy one of those silly dummies on Amazon, I can't really do much with watching online, but I guess that could be an option as well.
00:19:58.998 --> 00:20:01.397
Do you know of any online programs?
00:20:01.397 --> 00:20:02.935
Because I use the supplement.
00:20:03.009 --> 00:20:18.762
I don't use it primarily to do it, but there's just a lot of information out there, but with a lot of information there's a lot of bad information.
00:20:18.762 --> 00:20:20.746
So is any recommendations for online to supplement it?
00:20:20.746 --> 00:20:42.412
Yes, so now I'm not going to call out any like specific organization, but again I would say, thinking about what is the aim of a police officer, you want to do minimum, you want maximum control, minimum harm right In that situation, and ideally you really we can go back and say this comes down to even our deescalatory skills, right, being able to have the confidence to speak up and talk this person down, right.
00:20:42.412 --> 00:20:48.155
But so for me, like I said, grappling based systems are paramount.
00:20:48.155 --> 00:20:53.699
Fortunately, there is a ton of online content nowadays related to that.
00:20:53.699 --> 00:21:10.250
If you look into like if you were to Google, something like police and grappling, police and jujitsu, you're more likely to find results that are going to connect the law enforcement industry with the grappling-based training, right.
00:21:10.250 --> 00:21:16.703
So I mean, I'd say it's really more down to you, know, you sitting down and doing your own research.
00:21:17.230 --> 00:21:19.358
I don't like to call out specific organizations.
00:21:19.358 --> 00:21:27.964
I'm not affiliated with a specific organization that actually does a law enforcement direct, but there are some out there.
00:21:27.964 --> 00:21:34.009
I think when we get too wrapped up in like specific companies.
00:21:34.009 --> 00:21:36.239
I think we lose the context here.
00:21:36.239 --> 00:21:39.135
I think it's more about the attribute, developing this attribute.
00:21:39.135 --> 00:22:00.733
So if you were to find any grappling base system or you were to find an online platform that works for you as far as the limitation that you're presenting with being by yourself, if you're in an agency, all you need is one other officer, right, who might also share a similar interest, and you guys can get together and really work that out and drill on your own time, right?
00:22:00.733 --> 00:22:02.577
So that's something to consider.
00:22:02.577 --> 00:22:06.744
But I don't think there's much of a legitimate supplementing person.
00:22:06.744 --> 00:22:13.538
Face-to-face training, right, like if you have no other choice, you're in a really small area and there's nothing around, okay, go online.
00:22:13.538 --> 00:22:20.096
But I definitely think you really need to be in an environment where you're with another person and you guys are engaged.
00:22:20.156 --> 00:22:21.219
And I tend to agree.
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